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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Sure, I'll get back to the spreadsheet and see how accurate it is, then I'll see if I can get it on track. Then I can put whatever colonists you want in there and tell you what to expect.

By return on investment I meant things like:

Hull tech vs capacity vs profit potential.
From Hull lv 0, upgrading to 100:

Capacity: 577
Cost: 809,418
Cost per cargo unit: 1,404
Profit potential (30)*: 17,300
Turns to next level: 70

*Profit potential is expressed as a constant derived from the following: P=(p-c)/4
Where p is the profit from sale of commodities and c is the cost. The 4 is the amount of turns from a standard trade route. So a P of 30 would be buying goods at 27 credits and selling at 147. Through RS trading I worked out that 30 was a good baseline profit to expect. Anything lower was wasting your time, anything higher was great, but not common unless you were RS trading a long distance (the actual benefit is gained from energy scooping) or in an old galaxy with some rarely traded at ports.

Compare to upgrading from 0 to 300:

Capacity: 1,917,652
Cost: 2,125,122,258,469
Cost per cargo Unit: 1,108,190
Profit potential (30): 57,529,560
Turns to next level: 55,410

As you can see, since the profit potential doesn't increase, while the cost per cargo unit does, trading becomes less and less profitable at higher levels. I have a table filled up with the figured of every 10 levels up to 600. If you graph it as cost per unit vs. capacity, you get a curve that intersects around tech level 220, which is about the point where turns to next level starts increasing by over 1000 per level. Incidentally I have a profit calculator that can tell you how profitable any trade route is based on your cargo capacity, the total purchase price at a port, and the total sale price. Alternately, you can punch in the profit potential you want and it'll tell you how much you need to be making on sale to get that. I put all this into practice in the main game and came out number 1 for a few days until the builders really got going and overtook me. Then I traded in my Columbus because I needed to build SD to protect my planets. But when I did that I shot way down to about 40th and wasn't really under threat anymore.

I've yet to calculate where the ideal spot to switch from trading to building is, because it's pretty much ideal to switch to building as soon as you can. Plus, it's difficult to compare the two because trading is very much reliant on turns, whereas you don't need to USE turns to make money building.


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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:48 pm 
AA Warrior
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 532
Wow! That's pretty cool.

Just my little suggestion: switch to building around 250 hulls, but keep upgrading hulls a bit as you build. I know it makes sense to start building as soon as possible, but trading increases hulls, and building takes hulls, so trading isn't too bad a thing.



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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:35 am 
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Realistically, I wanted to trade at around 250 until I had enough money to shoot off into space and build an SG, but I planned it poorly. But yeah, early trading can be lucrative because you need the hulls for building and you can make a decent amount of money pretty quickly by doing so.


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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:13 pm 
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250 was perfect for me, because that was when I was also getting enough money to be able to afford an SG. I only built one planet this entire round in RS, and that was my first planet to get off my pio and into a columbus (why I haven't lost a single planet :D).

Today's Friday, so I've got some free time. I think today I'll get around to reworking my credit production approximations.



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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:38 am 
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InstinctSage wrote:
Sure, I'll get back to the spreadsheet and see how accurate it is, then I'll see if I can get it on track. Then I can put whatever colonists you want in there and tell you what to expect.

By return on investment I meant things like:

Hull tech vs capacity vs profit potential.
From Hull lv 0, upgrading to 100:

Capacity: 577
Cost: 809,418
Cost per cargo unit: 1,404
Profit potential (30)*: 17,300
Turns to next level: 70

*Profit potential is expressed as a constant derived from the following: P=(p-c)/4
Where p is the profit from sale of commodities and c is the cost. The 4 is the amount of turns from a standard trade route. So a P of 30 would be buying goods at 27 credits and selling at 147. Through RS trading I worked out that 30 was a good baseline profit to expect. Anything lower was wasting your time, anything higher was great, but not common unless you were RS trading a long distance (the actual benefit is gained from energy scooping) or in an old galaxy with some rarely traded at ports.

Compare to upgrading from 0 to 300:

Capacity: 1,917,652
Cost: 2,125,122,258,469
Cost per cargo Unit: 1,108,190
Profit potential (30): 57,529,560
Turns to next level: 55,410

As you can see, since the profit potential doesn't increase, while the cost per cargo unit does, trading becomes less and less profitable at higher levels. I have a table filled up with the figured of every 10 levels up to 600. If you graph it as cost per unit vs. capacity, you get a curve that intersects around tech level 220, which is about the point where turns to next level starts increasing by over 1000 per level. Incidentally I have a profit calculator that can tell you how profitable any trade route is based on your cargo capacity, the total purchase price at a port, and the total sale price. Alternately, you can punch in the profit potential you want and it'll tell you how much you need to be making on sale to get that. I put all this into practice in the main game and came out number 1 for a few days until the builders really got going and overtook me. Then I traded in my Columbus because I needed to build SD to protect my planets. But when I did that I shot way down to about 40th and wasn't really under threat anymore.

I've yet to calculate where the ideal spot to switch from trading to building is, because it's pretty much ideal to switch to building as soon as you can. Plus, it's difficult to compare the two because trading is very much reliant on turns, whereas you don't need to USE turns to make money building.


Watch my Score and my rank for the entire game.... I will (usually) be static in rank as my score increases... Then sometime during the game the top ranks will start fighting and eliminate several other top players.... Then I will shoot up in the ranks (but not in score) The losing top players will never recover in time to surpass me again in score... and some will suicide.... You can do your formulas, but when a good attacker gets you in their sights--he will thank you for your effenicy (spell)...



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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:38 pm 
AA Warrior
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 532
lol, don't worry Lucky, we know what we're doing ;)

Most of the time, I'm the attacker.

On the subject, I have been busy with school, etc and haven't had time for differential equations. It wouldn't really take long, but I've been too mentally exhausted for anything additional that's academic. Whatever... I'm beginning to doubt if I had the right format anyway. If I saw the code I could do it. That's what I need to look at.



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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:31 am 
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Lucky, that requires a defensive status that makes you not worth the effort to attack, and a reliance that by the end of the game you'll have more on your planets than the largest and most successful attacker has across theirs. I watch with interest the way your plans go, but I can't see them getting you to number 1 based on what you've described in your blog.

Work and other commitments have stolen most of my game time so I've become dormant, just building and pushing a fair percentage of my cash onto SD.


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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:58 am 
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InstinctSage wrote:
Work and other commitments have stolen most of my game time so I've become dormant, just building and pushing a fair percentage of my cash onto SD.


Its funny how that can effect your game play. If your gonna be an attacker you have to be a little more committed to watching the game, where as keeping a low profile and building and defending takes much less time :)



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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:51 am 
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It probably doesn't help that I picked up Gears of War, Mass Effect, and Condemned for the 360...
But honestly, my attempts at attacking were ridiculous. You know I decked out a Razorback and forgot to buy armor after upgrading it? One run and KABOOM! :(


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 Post subject: Re: A Building Question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:59 am 
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InstinctSage wrote:
It probably doesn't help that I picked up Gears of War, Mass Effect, and Condemned for the 360...
But honestly, my attempts at attacking were ridiculous. You know I decked out a Razorback and forgot to buy armor after upgrading it? One run and KABOOM! :(


EEEK! Hey don't feel bad, even the veterans make mistakes. I remember attacking a ship with no energy, fighters or torps. I tell you that was a painful mistake.



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