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 Post subject: Fighters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:03 pm 
AA Warrior
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Since you guys are gonna be using the new thing where tech increases quality rather than quantity, will scans still show the SD power of fighters, as they show the numbers now? Or will we just see a number of fighters and have to wonder if its takeable or not? If its the latter, a probe would be OK, except for the fact that they take so bloody long to move...



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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:38 pm 
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We haven't really decided yet but I think doing a sector scan will only show the number and not the tech. If you want to know the tech you will have to scan the planets to find out the weapons tech.



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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:35 am 
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But to do that you have to be in the sector... catch 22 don't you think? I personally think the scan thing is fair as it is, and taking out that aspect will completely skrew it. Now attackers will have to take 20 minutes to an hour just to take one sector, which is completely unfair. As you all have reiterated many times, as it is, it is fair. This would give the attackers a HUGE dissadvantage.



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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:38 am 
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Not really, that is what a Stealth Ship should be used for... Scouting. You use it to sneak into sectors to scan planets to see what they have on them and then come back later with a more powerful ship.



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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:10 pm 
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Sorry to stick my nose in here, but I've got to agree with Valience on this one to a certain extent.

When I brought up the ineffectiveness of stealth ships (as they are now) in another thread I was told I was using the wrong tool and should be using probes instead.

The shipyard page specifically says stealth ships are good for getting past defenses, but the reality is the failure rate is far too high to do that reliably - which means probes need to be used.

If that's the case, then the attacker should be able to gain some useful information about the strength of sector defenses by scanning the sector. That's not to say he should get exact numbers and tech levels, but it should be similar to scanning a planet now where you have an idea of the strength, but you know there's probably some incorrect information.

On the other hand if stealth ships are going to be improved to the point where they can actually be used to bypass defenses reliably (assuming a higher cloak level on the stealth ship than sensors in the sector), then requiring a planet scan probably makes some sense.

My 2 cents.


Last edited by Jack Acid on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:38 pm 
AA Warrior
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I've also got a compromise. If it only tells the number of fighters, then scanning is sector will become TOTALLY pointless, other than for sector missiles. I think a scan should reveal the fighter "class," like it could say "class 32" if the fighter tech were somewhere between 320 and 329. That wouldn't be very much info really, but it would at least be something... If I got that, and if cloaking was made more effective, because I shouldn't be risking getting podded just because I want to see what tech level a sector has on SD, even if it might end up being so high that I don't attack it anyway, then I might be willing to go ahead and do it. An initial scan could give me a general idea of the tech, and if I need more detail I can use a stealth. But really, what you're saying would make using a stealth 100% NECESSARY just to attack even the smallest of sectors!!!! That's insane!!! And beyond that, even if once I use the stupid stealth to find out what the SD levels are at, and they are too high for me, I STILL risk getting podded in a sector that I don't even want to even TRY to take! Thats so dumb!

And finally, what it boils down to is this: what you are proposing would mean that without the use of a stealth ship, an attacker, when attacking a sector, will just have to hope that the SD tech isn't enough to pod him. He'll have absolutely no control over it. Now lets examine what happens when he decides to use a stealth. When he's only using his main ship he just has to hope the weapons tech is low enough. Well, when he's using the stealth, he just has to HOPE that the sensor tech is low enough. There is NO DIFFERENCE!!! If he uses the stealth and then gets podded, yeah, he won't lose as much (probably), but he STILL doesn't know if his ship's fighters would be good enough to defeat the SD fighters! Again, the thing is completely unfair. You'd have to make cloaking tech WAY more effective or people will be getting podded left and right just trying to LOOK AT the smallest of sectors, all because you make scanning so much more ineffective, which will be skrewing them over as far as the cost of a new ship since it increases with each death. So go ahead and make it so that the scan doesn't help as much, as long as you at least let it say something, and increase the effectiveness of cloak. Otherwise, it's completely unfair, and all the refinement and balance of the game's SD system will go down the drain, virtually eliminating the attacking side of the game.

You must realize already that nobody can be ONLY an attacker. Yeah, yeah, the best players are both, but again look at players like Namibia and PP, primarily builders and very successful. Building increases a players score. A very lucky find for an attacker may decrease someone else's score a lot, but it will not help the attacker very much in comparison. All acknowledge that hiding is key to keeping one's assets in this game, but when you take someone else's planets, you cannot possibly hide, because that person will always know where it is. If you are a player that everyone likes to pod, like me, that info will generally be leaked, and the same for people like Tarnus. Last game, I had players coming at me left and right donating Tarnus info, and if I had anything in RS, or if someone had found my SG, I'm sure it would have been the same for him. Because of this, I blow up every planet I take. They really are worthless, with the exception of at the beginning of the game, because they cannot be hidden. So in an attack, I may get one day's worth of production from a planet if I'm LUCKY, but probably not even that much, and then I blow it up. Attacking is for harming others, not helping onesself. And because attacking requires money, generally a good bit more than it makes, the player must also build. So really, it's already only like half the play style that building is. It's just sort of a small thing that people can do on the side. Changing this scanning thing will make it even less than it already is! I must say, I cannot get over the fact that with this new change, I risk getting podded over a sector that may have only 50B in it on the planets, say, and very small defenses, just because my stealth fails, or I may risk, on the other hand, losing a main ship because I think a sector is much weaker than it really is. I'd like attacking to be a larger and more complicated part of the game, and with this, it's going in the opposite direction.

Sensors, once over 300, will do very very little. Now they help in AR, but that'll be gone. That is the most important thing I use them for. I almost never scan unless I want to see if a player is bounty to me, which doesn't require much money in them. Instead I use spies, which is cloak tech. Now, you're taking even more importance away from sensors and putting more into already more important cloak. That's just not right. Other than this, I like your new ideas, but in this case, I think you're going to be moving the game in the complete wrong direction and unbalancing it.



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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:19 pm 
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Everyone is just going to have to wait and see how things are going to work. We have had people claim, in the past, that the changes we are going to make will not work or will imbalance the game horribly. In almost every instance they found out were were right. :)

There are many other things that will be going on that you don't know about. All I did was give a rough outline.

The base hull size coupled with the purchased hull size is going to affect how well a ship can be cloaked and how well the engines can maneuver the ship. In other words a tiny Stealth with a cloak of 250 will be many times more effective than an Endeavour with a 250 cloak. The 250 cloak will have a much harder time trying to conceal the much larger Endeavor. And SD cloak effectiveness will be based around a LARGE size ship. So SD cloak will not be as effective as it has been.

There are a number of other factors that will come into play as well.

The Class of the SD will probably be shown but NOT the tech level. You will need to scan the planet to find that out since all SD tech is planet based.



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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:23 pm 
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And don't forget...Probes...probes...probes... Use your tools!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:06 pm 
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Hey Valience, when you say how ineffective probes would be one says use stealth ships. When you say how ineffective stealth ships would be the other one says use probes. Now that's game balance! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Fighters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:37 pm 
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XD It's so true! So true!!! You two are hilarious...

But anyway, in light of PJ's explanation, please excuse my ignorant protestations. I'll wait 'till beta to complain some more :P



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