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 Post subject: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Ok, we have come up with a solution that should stop this exploit.

We are changing the bounty system again. We have found certain teams are exploiting the bounty system to attack low ranked players. Since we are removing the exploit I don't have any problems telling people how it was done.

We had players either leaving a team so teammates could attack and capture their planets then rejoining the team or staying on the team and destroying their planets to lower their score so they could attack lower ranked players. This in itself is not a real problem. The problem comes from teammates funneling cash to the now low ranked player so they can buy a large ship and upgrade the tech levels. The other players on the team would continue to funnel money through Team Cash to this low ranked player so they could repair and buy weapons after each attack. You could end up with a player who had only one planet and one huge ship attacking every low ranked player without taking any damage as long as his teammates funneled money to him through Team Cash. This is definitely an exploit.

One of the things we talked about a long time ago on bounties for teams was to make the attack bounty like the defense bounty. When you join a team if you are a low ranked player and the team you joined has a high ranked player then you can be attacked by any player who can attack the high ranked player on your team. When we made that change we also discussed making it so the low ranked player on the team had the same bounty ATTACK restrictions as the top ranked player on the team. After some heated ;) discussion it was tabled.

Well, after seeing what has been going on in the game we have decided to enable this change. All players on a team will have a floating bounty range for their attacks based upon the TOP RANKED player on their team. This floating range will be based upon the difference between the player on the team doing the attack and the top ranked player on the team. What this means is if you are on a team with a high ranked player and you are low ranked you will no longer be able to attack anyone in the same range as a non-teamed player. The players you can attack will be closer to the players the top ranked player can attack.

If you don't like the change don't blame us, blame the players that caused us to take this action.

Another bounty change we are thinking about adding is a when a player leaves a team. If a player leaves a team they will not be able to attack or be attacked by anyone on the team they left for 2-3 days. There are some possible problems doing this and we are looking into all of the ways it might be exploited before adding it to the game.

We are also adding one last bounty change. If you have more than 5 on your bounty counter your player will be a BOUNTY FREE attack by anyone in the game. You will stay a bounty free attack until you eventually go below 5 on your bounty counter.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:01 pm 
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Hmm... I'm not a fan of this one. Especially since it severely encourages unteamed alliances. Personally I always considered score control as a tactic.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:32 pm 
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Well, the second part about not attacking former teammates sounds great to me, for reasons beyond just stopping the bounty exploit.

The third thing, I thought was already the case. I thought with even just one bounty, a player became bounty free.

And the first... This is the one I don't like. Bigger players an a team can't always just give cash to the smaller guys. It's not always available. So this means that the smaller guys could get by attacked by a player with greater score than there own without a bounty, since this player can probably attack the highest player on the team, and the smaller player may still get a bounty for attacking the bigger player who attacked them!

I think this really discourages team play. Now all prospective team players are going to have to be in the same score range to safely team up, or else other players will be able to take advantage of it without facing retaliation.

I think you've gone too far. This makes it so that other players can expoit teams. Joining a team will not weaken players, rather than strengthening them, as it should.

Really, I think you should just let players have a little more freedom. First, you say that betrayal is just another part of the game, and is a legitimate way of playing, but now you say that having only one ship and one planet is not right! Really, decide if you're going to let players play the game as they wish, or if you're going to decide exactly what they have to do. I think this is really inconsistent.

I'm not even one of the players that does this. I'm mostly opposed to this because I'm not going to be able to team with any one now. I don't think this is right at all...



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:43 pm 
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Valience wrote:
I think this really discourages team play. Now all prospective team players are going to have to be in the same score range to safely team up, or else other players will be able to take advantage of it without facing retaliation.

I think you've gone too far. This makes it so that other players can expoit teams. Joining a team will not weaken players, rather than strengthening them, as it should.

Really, I think you should just let players have a little more freedom. First, you say that betrayal is just another part of the game, and is a legitimate way of playing, but now you say that having only one ship and one planet is not right! Really, decide if you're going to let players play the game as they wish, or if you're going to decide exactly what they have to do. I think this is really inconsistent.

I'm not even one of the players that does this. I'm mostly opposed to this because I'm not going to be able to team with any one now. I don't think this is right at all...



So what your saying is its OK for a team to constantly funnel cash to a small player that has no planets so that player has nothing to lose and can continually pod and destroy new players driving them to not play... is that what your saying? Because thats exactly what is happening. What this does is balance the difference between team play and single play. Originally it was going to be the top player. This scaled option really makes it more fair. If you want to be a team of attackers your going to have to learn to balance your scores.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Obviously...

I don't think what is going on is fair, but I don't think betrayal is fair either, and you guys support that. I just think you're being inconsistent. And this really is going to make team play difficult.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Valience wrote:
The third thing, I thought was already the case. I thought with even just one bounty, a player became bounty free.


They are until they PAY OFF the bounty. If they get a bounty and immediately pay it then they are no longer bounty free. We changed it so if you get 5 on the bounty counter you will be bounty free even if you pay off your bounties.

Valience wrote:
And the first... This is the one I don't like. Bigger players an a team can't always just give cash to the smaller guys. It's not always available. So this means that the smaller guys could get by attacked by a player with greater score than there own without a bounty, since this player can probably attack the highest player on the team, and the smaller player may still get a bounty for attacking the bigger player who attacked them!


When a smaller player joins a team with higher ranked players they have been VULNERABLE to attack from players in the high ranked players bounty range for around 2 years now. That is nothing new and you see how well it has worked out. You apparently didn't even know about it. :) Also a smaller player can NEVER get a bounty for attacking someone BIGGER than they are. I don't know where you got that idea from the posted changes.

Valience wrote:
I think this really discourages team play. Now all prospective team players are going to have to be in the same score range to safely team up, or else other players will be able to take advantage of it without facing retaliation.


Like I said it has been that way for around two years now. If you want to stay SAFE on a team you shouldn't join a team with players a lot higher in rank than you are. THIS IS NOTHING NEW.

Valience wrote:
I think you've gone too far. This makes it so that other players can exploit teams. Joining a team will not weaken players, rather than strengthening them, as it should.


I would really like to see where you got that from as well and your reasoning behind it.

Valience wrote:
Really, I think you should just let players have a little more freedom. First, you say that betrayal is just another part of the game, and is a legitimate way of playing, but now you say that having only one ship and one planet is not right! Really, decide if you're going to let players play the game as they wish, or if you're going to decide exactly what they have to do. I think this is really inconsistent.


It is consistent with keeping the gameplay balanced. Before the changes the exploit being used made teams incredibly POWERFUL against unteamed players who were low ranked. With the Four Horsemen that had three teammates giving money to the smallest teammate so he could get a HUGE ship (Excelsior) while keeping his score very, very LOW with just a few planets. A player with his score could NEVER have afforded an Excelsior. This allowed the team to have a low ranked player with the POWER of a high ranked player just wiping the floor with every other low ranked player on the server. It made the team virtually invincible. Kind of like how the old BNT game worked where once you were on top you kept killing the new low ranked players so they could never get big enough to challenge you. The team was acting like a single player from BNT where they got on top and just kept wiping out any low ranked player they found using their hyper-powerful low ranked teammate.

When you are on a team the overall dynamic of the team should affect everyone on the team. Teams should not be so powerful they can wipe the floor with low ranked unteamed players. IT IS NOT BALANCED.

Valience wrote:
I'm not even one of the players that does this. I'm mostly opposed to this because I'm not going to be able to team with any one now. I don't think this is right at all...


I don't see how you can say that. You haven't given any valid reason for your claim.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Actually, I did know that players can be attacked by anyone who could attack their largest teammate, and I think that this alone is fair, but not with the new changes. I was just listing that along with the other argument.

Basically, this is what I'm thinking. Let's say we have three players. This is going to be a really weird situation, but it's just for the point of argument. The same thing could happen with more reasonable scores.

Player A has score 1,000,000,000, and is player B's teammate. Player B has score 1,000. Player C is an independant attacker with score 1,000,000.

Player C would not get a bounty attacking player A, so they would not get a bounty attacking player B. Player A would get a bounty attacking player C. With the new bounty changes, player B would also get a bounty attacking player C, just because player A would. This means that player C, a much larger player than player B, can attack player B not only without a bounty (as they could before), but they also do not face retaliation from the player with a 1,000 times smaller score, because of the new bounty change!

Since now it is possible for a single independant player to attack an entire team without being vulnerable to the attacks of anyone on that team, and still have a much larger score than some of the smaller players on that team, I think it is unfair. There is now absolutely nothing anyone on that team can do to stop the attacks.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Valience wrote:
Since now it is possible for a single independant player to attack an entire team without being vulnerable to the attacks of anyone on that team, and still have a much larger score than some of the smaller players on that team, I think it is unfair. There is now absolutely nothing anyone on that team can do to stop the attacks.


There is something a player can do in this situation. Catch them in your sector while you still control and own it. You can attack them without getting a bounty.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:25 pm 
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That assumes that the victim just happens to be online while they're being attacked. They'd have to be really lucky for that to happen.

People shouldn't have to rely on having good luck for the bounty system to be fair.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:31 pm 
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Valience wrote:
Player C would not get a bounty attacking player A, so they would not get a bounty attacking player B. Player A would get a bounty attacking player C. With the new bounty changes, player B would also get a bounty attacking player C, just because player A would. This means that player C, a much larger player than player B, can attack player B not only without a bounty (as they could before), but they also do not face retaliation from the player with a 1,000 times smaller score, because of the new bounty change!


And that's the way it should be. If you are that SMALL and join a team with a player that LARGE you are going to get thumped because you are not an asset to the team and the only way the team can protect you is to bury you in one of their SG areas and let you build until you are big enough to defend yourself. That is how it's supposed to work. You join a team because you can either help the team or they can help protect you. The way they protect you if you are that small is exactly what I posted above. It is one of many ways the smaller player on a team like that can be protected. In this game you don't just join a team just to be on a team.

I would never join a team with a player a lot higher ranked than me unless they had a deep SG warren they would let me bury myself in until I built up to be useful.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:33 pm 
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But it really doesn't have to be such a big difference. If the lower player was just under 70% of the score of the larger player, it would do it. That's really not a very big margin that all team players will have to be in relative to each other.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Valience wrote:

Since now it is possible for a single independant player to attack an entire team without being vulnerable to the attacks of anyone on that team, and still have a much larger score than some of the smaller players on that team, I think it is unfair. There is now absolutely nothing anyone on that team can do to stop the attacks.


If you are that large of a player being attacked by that much smaller of players I am sure that you can afford to put some of those funds in defenses. If you defend well enough the smaller player will not be able to afford to finish the attack or they will learn not to attack you because it is cost prohibitive to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Dues
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:45 pm 
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Wild Angel wrote:
Valience wrote:

Since now it is possible for a single independant player to attack an entire team without being vulnerable to the attacks of anyone on that team, and still have a much larger score than some of the smaller players on that team, I think it is unfair. There is now absolutely nothing anyone on that team can do to stop the attacks.


If you are that large of a player being attacked by that much smaller of players I am sure that you can afford to put some of those funds in defenses. If you defend well enough the smaller player will not be able to afford to finish the attack or they will learn not to attack you because it is cost prohibitive to do so.


You got that right. That's what being on a team is about. Get your higher ranked teammates to put in some SD for you and help with putting a planet in the sector and bumping the SD tech on their planet to protect you. If you join a team don't Lone Wolf it get your teammates to help you out and if they won't then maybe you need to look for different teammates.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:48 pm 
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Well the bigger guy cant' always send cash to the little guy. Sometimes they just don't have it on them.

Oh well, I see it's not going to change, so I'll drop it.

But here's a warning for anyone considering teaming with a larger player out there:

If that larger player would get a bounty attacking you normally, it means when you join up with him/her, you won't be able to attack anyone YOUR SIZE!!! They'll be bounty to you. In fact, larger players may be bounty for you as well, and they'll all have free reign over you. So be careful.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:51 pm 
question though if u have the bounty countdown does the federation attack u while your landed on a planet?


  
 
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