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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Kulva wrote:
question though if u have the bounty countdown does the federation attack u while your landed on a planet?


They can attack you anywhere, and at anytime that you are ONLINE. So if you wanna avoid it, you might just take some time off of the game a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:06 pm 
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What about the guy that got hit by the feds even after he was dead? Hades, I think? He wasn't online, yet he got hit.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:11 pm 
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dutchintexas wrote:
What about the guy that got hit by the feds even after he was dead? Hades, I think? He wasn't online, yet he got hit.



That was a bug. And technically he was online but he was dead ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Tarnus wrote:
dutchintexas wrote:
What about the guy that got hit by the feds even after he was dead? Hades, I think? He wasn't online, yet he got hit.



That was a bug. And technically he was online but he was dead ;)


Ah, ok... that explains it. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:52 pm 
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I assume we're using the Riders as the model for this change. Fourth being the lowest with 5.6 million points. Half-way to the top of the first page. It seems to me that alot of the 106 players would still be a bounty to him. It seems to me that alot of them aren't new players. It seems to me that players who give up permanently because they can't become the best aren't really that big of a loss.

I want a game where players see how their enemies play the game and devise a strategy to beat it. The danger of being pummeled down when you get to close encourages that. I want a game where underhanded tactics and straightforward tactics are both legit ways to reach the top.

On top of that I've seen Third give money to anyone who asks. I've played with First and he's a decent cat. Fourth has helped out every new player he's taken the time to pod. It's not like they aren't helping the lower players become better, they're just defending their posistion at the same time.

That's just my opinion.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:26 pm 
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This feels like more of a response to Jason and Darkon getting splattered than some faceless newbs to me. Since the last bounty change the low players getting picked off has been curbed greatly.

The idea of score control as an exploit rings false to me. This strategy has been around for years. I remember Ash using this with his teammate circa 03-04 and no one thought anything of it as he pounded the universe into dust then moved half his money onto his teammated two hours before the round ended securing the previously low player a second place finish.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:40 pm 
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I've sat here and debated whether or not I should chime in. I've made some observations over the last few weeks, and decided to share what they were. First, let's name the changes that were made since this round started. In no particular order.

1. First there was the number of players that were allowed online at the same time, and the 8 hour time limit.
2. The change in sector defence cost, compared to the ship tech upgrade cost.
3. Bounty changes, not once, not twice, but three changes.
4. The ratings were reset.

Now... for my observations, from this, and last round.

I've seen several players last round online all day, for many many hours without even moving. I don't have a problem with it. I'm a builder, I like to check on my dignitaries, and with as many planets as I have, it takes a long time. So I too was guilty of that. So far, I have almost never, not never, but almost never, seen 14 people online. So the 8 hour time limit is pretty much useless, in my opinion. Personally, my feeling is it was changed because someone complaned that the riders were online too much.

Sector defence changes... I was told that another player or two has/ve complained about this in the past. That the sector defence to ship didn't quite make sense. When they get wiped out, no changes are made. Yet when a player in the "in crowd" gets hit, suddenly it's cheaper to put up defences. Now, I'm not upset about that. I'm a builder, and now it's cheaper to protect my assets. It's just funny to me that when the Riders hit someone, suddenly it gets changed.

Good vs evil rating. I've seen it used many many times last round, and this one as well. By several of the larger players. To be able to hit the smaller players. Don't know if the Riders were the cause of that decision.

Then, the bounty changes. This is the worst one in my opinion. Last round, I've seen someone take 3 times a 375T bounty. My guess is that something happened between those two players before I joined. Don't know, so I can't say for sure. At any rate... The bounty was paid by another team member. Player number one decided to take a bounty, because he knew it would be paid. How is that different from what has happened this round? My guess is, because the Riders are involved.

I could go on, but my guess is, I'm going to make plenty of people mad as is. I've kept my silence through a lot of this stuff, as I'm not one to gripe, I just want to do my own thing. I am here to have fun, relax, and help others. I think most everyone knows I don't shy away from giving my advice, help AND cash when asked. I'm far from an expert, but I like to share what I do know. The more skilled players, the more fun the game becomes... At least, that is what I think.

FWIW, I don't agree with the tactics/exploits !?!?! my team has used, and they are aware of that. HOWEVER, I have seen the same thing done in the past, by the very people who are now changing the rules or whining about it. That is wrong, in my opinion.

Seems to me that when the Riders use a tactic, it's being called an exploit, yet when others use the very same thing, it's a strategy. I think Tonto made some very good points.

There. Now I guess I will sit back and let the bashing begin.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:45 pm 
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IkeDiamonds wrote:
This feels like more of a response to Jason and Darkon getting splattered than some faceless newbs to me. Since the last bounty change the low players getting picked off has been curbed greatly.

The idea of score control as an exploit rings false to me. This strategy has been around for years. I remember Ash using this with his teammate circa 03-04 and no one thought anything of it as he pounded the universe into dust then moved half his money onto his teammated two hours before the round ended securing the previously low player a second place finish.


I agree, to an extent. I have seen Lithinar get wiped out not once, but twice. Nothing was ever done there because Lithinar never whined. Same tactics/exploits were used.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:01 pm 
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Kulva wrote:
question though if u have the bounty countdown does the federation attack u while your landed on a planet?


No, they wait for you to leave your planet.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:03 pm 
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oh, one more thing I forgot to add to my post. In my opinion it's unfair to "punish" (for lack of better word) a whole field of players, because of the actions of a few you don't approve of. A warning could have been sent, telling them to knock it off, or be banned. First could have been made to destroy the planets he took from fourth, so the cash flow that would have been made off them doesn't exist anymore. Just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:07 pm 
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LordTonto wrote:
I assume we're using the Riders as the model for this change. Fourth being the lowest with 5.6 million points. Half-way to the top of the first page. It seems to me that alot of the 106 players would still be a bounty to him. It seems to me that alot of them aren't new players. It seems to me that players who give up permanently because they can't become the best aren't really that big of a loss.


The problem is he has a ship equivalent to the players in the 35+ million score range. How do you think a player in the 5 million score range will fair against such a ship? They won't they will get stomped every time. They won't be able to defend against that ship, EVER. He wouldn't have that ship if it wasn't for the money being fed him via team cash by his teammates. Basically, they are circumventing the bounty system by doing that.

LordTonto wrote:
I want a game where players see how their enemies play the game and devise a strategy to beat it. The danger of being pummeled down when you get to close encourages that. I want a game where underhanded tactics and straightforward tactics are both legit ways to reach the top.


The problem is there isn't a defense or strategy that can be used against this tactic. Players in the 5 million score ranmge will NEVER WIN against the Excelsiotr he owns and there is nothing you can do to defend against it.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:18 pm 
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dutchintexas wrote:
Seems to me that when the Riders use a tactic, it's being called an exploit, yet when others use the very same thing, it's a strategy. I think Tonto made some very good points.


What you don't realise is how we watch everything that goes on in the game. We log every single thing a player does so we can check to see if people are exploiting the system. All of the logs we record are at almost 150 meg right now. That's a lot of information about what everyone is doing in the game. We watch things for a long time to see if they cause balance problems. Then we sit down and work out why it is happening, how much it can adversely affect the game play for the majority of the players and what can be done to fix the problem that is balanced.

We don't play favorites to ANYONE in the game. We have fixed problems that were used by well known players and not shown them any favoritism. We have called them on it and in some cases punished them in the game. It doesn't matter if you are someone who has been here for a long time or a newbie. If we determine something they are doing is detrimental to the game we will fix it.

We bounce ideas off each other constantly.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:21 pm 
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dutchintexas wrote:
oh, one more thing I forgot to add to my post. In my opinion it's unfair to "punish" (for lack of better word) a whole field of players, because of the actions of a few you don't approve of. A warning could have been sent, telling them to knock it off, or be banned. First could have been made to destroy the planets he took from fourth, so the cash flow that would have been made off them doesn't exist anymore. Just my opinion.


That DOES NOT fix the problem. It is still there. When we release this version then people can do the same thing on other servers we have no control over. Just telling players to stop will NOT stop it. Game designers know this and have to take that into account and design appropriate fixes.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:54 pm 
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First of all, let me thank Tarnus and company for all the hard work they've done in an effort to improve the game for everyone. Secondly, I want to express my regrets that any changes made as a result of my game tactics has negatively affected other players. Those who know me understand very well that the "juice" for me is devising strategies and tactics to overcome those strategies and tactics employed by the competion. Those who know me also understand that I am more than willing to help, train, coach, etc. newer players because I believe better players improve the overall game experience for all. The most recent events involving 4th and myself were executed in anticipation of an assault on our team...something that, in my opinion, is long overdue. We felt that what we did (score drop) was well within the parameters of the game rules, was a commonly used tactic (methods vary) and in no way violated game ethics.

Gunslinger...aka The First Horseman


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:05 pm 
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The problem is he has a ship equivalent to the players in the 35+ million score range. How do you think a player in the 5 million score range will fair against such a ship? They won't they will get stomped every time. They won't be able to defend against that ship, EVER. He wouldn't have that ship if it wasn't for the money being fed him via team cash by his teammates. Basically, they are circumventing the bounty system by doing that.<<<<<<<

Actually, I have a much larger ship than 4th has..plus well over 500 planets..and 6 additional ships..and I am not in the 35 mil point score range. 4th had well over 100 planets of his own that he built and used to upgrade his ship to a very nice level..something any other player could have done. He did get cash from me for further upgrades, but nowhere near what you are suggesting. If other top players havent upgraded thier ships, well, thats not his fault.


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