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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:06 pm 
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Texas Outlaw wrote:
If other top players havent upgraded thier ships, well, thats not his fault.


I know this game pretty damn good, and I know scores and prices pretty good. I also know what 4th's ship is sitting at, and there is no way I could upgrade my ship that high with what I have to work with. I was talking to Peet yesterday, and told her (Without being able to actually see for myself, since I had a past due loan) that I would need about 12T additional credits to get my ship to his size. After paying the loan several hours later, I checked it out, and I'd need 11.8T credits. Not far off, eh? So you tell me where I am going to get 12T credits to upgrade my ship if I have spend everything on SD to keep all the hired dogs out?

Texas Outlaw wrote:
The most recent events involving 4th and myself were executed in anticipation of an assault on our team...


Oh, sure it was, is that why you were crying when you couldn't make the attacks you wanted after score-dropping, because an even smaller player had SD blocking you? You weren't anticipating an assualt on anything except Jason and anyone else 4th could hit with his ship. So don't even bother spewing lies. You score-dropped 4th so he could go aggressive, not for defense purposes.

dutchintexas wrote:
oh, one more thing I forgot to add to my post. In my opinion it's unfair to "punish" (for lack of better word) a whole field of players, because of the actions of a few you don't approve of. A warning could have been sent, telling them to knock it off, or be banned. First could have been made to destroy the planets he took from fourth, so the cash flow that would have been made off them doesn't exist anymore. Just my opinion.


I don't see how making a change that is intended to stop an abuse is punishing anyone except abusers. It may mean that people have to learn to make their own money, but is that really punishment?

IkeDiamonds wrote:
This feels like more of a response to Jason and Darkon getting splattered than some faceless newbs to me. Since the last bounty change the low players getting picked off has been curbed greatly.


Actually, this has nothing to do with Darkon, as the talks were in place well before he ever got hit. While it appears that it may have something to do with Jason getting hit, that too is false. I myself am the one who pointed it out and said that the method they were going about to score-drop was an exploit. Tarnus didn't even think so at first, until I explained my reasoning. It was the same type thing as when I pulled a max IGB loan, then dropped it and all my other credits on a teammates planet to lower my score to hit someone. PJ thought that particular thing was an abuse, so this should be too. You can't hit a teammate's planets, so they had to unteam Mardigan in order to take his planets so he could do this. That is working around the established guidelines in the game.

dutchintexas wrote:
I've seen several players last round online all day, for many many hours without even moving. I don't have a problem with it. I'm a builder, I like to check on my dignitaries, and with as many planets as I have, it takes a long time. So I too was guilty of that. So far, I have almost never, not never, but almost never, seen 14 people online. So the 8 hour time limit is pretty much useless, in my opinion. Personally, my feeling is it was changed because someone complaned that the riders were online too much.


You are wrong, Peet. The time limit has been coded in for a very long time (Since the first .3x beta) and is always used in tournaments, if nothing else. It was around for a few months last round, but was removed at some point. As far as the player limit, I am partly responsible for that change too. The first day I signed up, I had to wait two hours to even spend one turn, because I couldn't login. Over the next week, there was a total of six out of seven days when I had to wait to login once I got home, one time not even GETTING to login, because I waited THREE HOURS and couldn't get someone to logout. The biggest culprit was not "The Horsemen" (Whom were all not even on a team yet, so thats a stupid thing to say). The biggest culprit was Valience, who would spend five hours spamming links to stupid pictures in the shoutbox. That is when I went to Tarnus and said I needed a change made, because it was ridiculous.

dutchintexas wrote:
Sector defence changes... I was told that another player or two has/ve complained about this in the past. That the sector defence to ship didn't quite make sense. When they get wiped out, no changes are made. Yet when a player in the "in crowd" gets hit, suddenly it's cheaper to put up defences. Now, I'm not upset about that. I'm a builder, and now it's cheaper to protect my assets. It's just funny to me that when the Riders hit someone, suddenly it gets changed.


Actually, the change was done BEFORE the Horsemen hit Jason, the change was done when Hawk tried to hit Jason. FYI Satman aka Hawk, is also a member of the "in crowd". I've been asking for some change to the SD costs for a long time, and even this doesn't make it good, as these hired guns still have bigger ships than normal players can afford to defend against.

dutchintexas wrote:
Good vs evil rating. I've seen it used many many times last round, and this one as well. By several of the larger players. To be able to hit the smaller players. Don't know if the Riders were the cause of that decision.


The Horsemen caused this as much as anyone, but this is another thing that I have been asking to have changed for a year or more.

dutchintexas wrote:
Then, the bounty changes. This is the worst one in my opinion. Last round, I've seen someone take 3 times a 375T bounty. My guess is that something happened between those two players before I joined. Don't know, so I can't say for sure. At any rate... The bounty was paid by another team member. Player number one decided to take a bounty, because he knew it would be paid. How is that different from what has happened this round? My guess is, because the Riders are involved.


First off, get your facts straight, there is a difference in getting 3 bounties and getting 20 bounties (AKA Kulva). Secondly, Tarnus was #6 last round, he didn't need to get the help from Moonraker, and didn't at first. Tarnus got a loan to pay the bounty (Which is what I do) then a day later, Moonraker offered to finish paying it off.

As I said, the one difference here, is that Tarnus knew he could pay the bounty himself, and he never got more than just a couple bounties. Your team is funding people who get a new bounty just about every goddamn day, and your team pays for the bounties, and the repairs from the attacks by the Federation, and they pay for upgrades. These players do not have the ability to pay for the bounties themselves. They rely on you to pay them, and you do. So don't even get me started, you are like one of those goddamn lawyers who allows killers to walk the streets. They do it time and again, and you are always there to hold their hand and make sure they don't actually have to PAY for their actions. Don't you dare come on here and try to post as if your team is the victim here!

LordTonto wrote:
It seems to me that players who give up permanently because they can't become the best aren't really that big of a loss.


Wow...Where to even begin? LordTonto, what is the use of allowing new players then? People play games to have fun, when every time they start to get somewhere, they are thrown back down ruthlessly by the top players, what can they do? Its not fun to lose your empire time and again. Especially if you don't know enough to be able to do anything about it. Eventually, you will get frustrated and give up. Thats how it is. People kill themselves in real life too, because things seem hopeless. Is that a big loss? Any human life lost is a big loss. Any player who quits the game is a big deal. The game should be fun for people, not just the top players.

Speaking of which, the top players are complaining because it is boring. Thats what happens at the top, especially the way you do things. How about funding less smaller players on Search and Destroy missions for the good players, let them grow enough to be in your range, and then fight them yourself? It makes it more interesting for you, but, then you are probably afraid of what would happen if a player like me got big enough to fight you. I don't blame you though, I'd scare myself if I was fighting me.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:11 pm 
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So don't even get me started, you are like one of those goddamn lawyers who allows killers to walk the streets.


Bahahaha, let's start with the whole "Don't get be started" bit. You were 3/4 through posting this rant when you got worried about 'starting.' Just wanted to point out the irony there. Also, don't you think it's a bit of an exaggeration to compare someone who plays a game and plays it well to a lawyer who knowlingly allows a killer to walk the street? Youdo see the difference between the two, right?

Quote:
Wow...Where to even begin? LordTonto, what is the use of allowing new players then? People play games to have fun, when every time they start to get somewhere, they are thrown back down ruthlessly by the top players, what can they do? Its not fun to lose your empire time and again. Especially if you don't know enough to be able to do anything about it. Eventually, you will get frustrated and give up. Thats how it is. People kill themselves in real life too, because things seem hopeless. Is that a big loss? Any human life lost is a big loss. Any player who quits the game is a big deal. The game should be fun for people, not just the top players.


Now for the part that concerns me :

The use of allowing new players is because some of them will become great at the game. They can take a beating and use their damn minds to think of how to topple their opponent. Imagine my scenario. You are sitting at a chess table with no opponent. There are two other tables. You watch on guy checkmate his opponent and the losing party get up and throw the board and pieces on the ground. Then you watch him sit down at the other table and lose just as quick, throwing the same damn fit. Then he comes and asks if you want to play him. What do you say?

The loss of a player who isn't willing to ask questions and become better isn't much of a loss to me, no. And then there you go again with your apples to oranges comparison. A game isn't real life, a player who quits and does something else with there time is NOT the same as a person who drinks a prescription pill cocktail and does some "extreme skydiving." To satisfy your question, though, no, no big loss to me in that scenario either.

Quote:
Speaking of which, the top players are complaining because it is boring. Thats what happens at the top, especially the way you do things. How about funding less smaller players on Search and Destroy missions for the good players, let them grow enough to be in your range, and then fight them yourself? It makes it more interesting for you, but, then you are probably afraid of what would happen if a player like me got big enough to fight you. I don't blame you though, I'd scare myself if I was fighting me.


I'm not sure if that part is directed at me. I remember when you let yourself be called expansionist you were larger than me and I wasn't afraid. Afterall, you mainly spent your day boasting about how the horsemen don't appreciate your "subtle" tactics. Which leads me to a personal question, when you lied to Darkon to try and turn the horsemen on me... was that one of those subtle tactics or was that improvised? Just professional curiosity.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Max we can go around and around with this, it won't solve anything. I'm more willing to solve the issue at hand, than rehash the past and yada yada yada yada yada all night long.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:32 pm 
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So you tell me where I am going to get 12T credits to upgrade my ship if I have spend everything on SD to keep all the hired dogs out?

that's the ONE thing I wanted to address. We ALL make choices. 4th decided to not have too many sd's so he could concentrate on his ship, I'm nearly positive another team member put up SD's for him. Jason could have done the same for you. Personally, I'd rather PROTECT my investment (planets)... so, my ship is very small for the score I have. All my money gets spent on sd's, not my ship. Don't need a big ship, really.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:13 pm 
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LordTonto wrote:
I'm not sure if that part is directed at me. I remember when you let yourself be called expansionist you were larger than me and I wasn't afraid. Afterall, you mainly spent your day boasting about how the horsemen don't appreciate your "subtle" tactics. Which leads me to a personal question, when you lied to Darkon to try and turn the horsemen on me... was that one of those subtle tactics or was that improvised? Just professional curiosity.


Two things, first, the comment was not directed at you, as you are not one of the top players, hell, you are still smaller than myself. Afraid of me? Maybe not, but remember, I'm the one who podded you, not the other way around.

Also, I have never once lied to Darkon. Show some proof before making slanderous comments...

dutchintexas wrote:
Max we can go around and around with this, it won't solve anything. I'm more willing to solve the issue at hand, than rehash the past and yada yada yada yada yada all night long.


So, you make a post on this forum and expect everyone to listen, and yet when I reply to your post, you say I am rehashing? Its called correcting some errors in what you perceived and was is reality.

dutchintexas wrote:
that's the ONE thing I wanted to address. We ALL make choices. 4th decided to not have too many sd's so he could concentrate on his ship, I'm nearly positive another team member put up SD's for him. Jason could have done the same for you. Personally, I'd rather PROTECT my investment (planets)... so, my ship is very small for the score I have. All my money gets spent on sd's, not my ship. Don't need a big ship, really.


Here is the thing, sweetheart. I don't have a team. I can't just say "Oh, I don't want to have any planets or any SD" and expect to get anywhere. If he wants a ship at that size, then let him have it, but he has to sleep unprotected? That would be fair. As far as the fact that Jason could have laid SD, yes, he could have, if I wanted to be on a team. I don't want to be on a team if I am not able to protect myself. Unlike your clan, I'm not a leech. And you saw how well Jason's SD protected him against your team's superior financial might. Imagine if he had to split his money to protect me?

All I want is to be able to protect myself from the players that are in my range. All your team is doing is paying for hired guns to come hunt me, paying their bounties, their repairs, their upgrades. How about letting the little players play their own game without hiring them to bully?



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:06 am 
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Quote:
Also, I have never once lied to Darkon. Show some proof before making slanderous comments...


1) Slander is spoken, print is libel.

2) Maybe you didn't lie to him, maybe Darkon lied to me and said he gave him false information. Alot of miscommunication was caused from it and in the end, rather than risk further misinformation I blocked Darkon in game and in AIM from sending me messages and assumed what he said about you was true. If that's not true than I apologize, but having been on a team with Darkon, I'd expect underhanded strategies like lying from you before him. Afterall, you're alot more hot-headed, alot more impulsive. It seems like you take alot of things personally too.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:42 am 
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Let stop all the conflict. He said, she said, etc, etc... will not fix the problems. Yes this change throws a kink into things. I have been beating my head into the walls looking for solutions to the overall issues. The primary issue isn't the score dropping, its the funding. When I watch things in the game I really could care less if I am attacked or the issues effect me, my primary goals is how it effect the smaller player and how and what they can do to overcome it. What had happened was effecting the smaller player. I've also been watching things since the change went into effect, and I dislike those results as well.

In order to fix a problem you need to look at the bigger picture. I am all for getting rid of the team bounty under conditions of limiting funding. The following are issues we are battling:

1 - Large teams using their large quantities of credits to attack smaller players. (this we fixed, I don't like the fix)

2 - Players ability to fund smaller players as easily as dropping a planet and giving it away to someone. I had come up with an idea on this but PJ had sledgehammered it, it wasn't perfect but was interesting.

3 - The smaller players getting pummeled to the point they quit and never come back.

I think we should all work together and think of some solutions. As I said in my blog, if this continues the game will stagnate as we will not have any new users. I for one like to see players that can stand toe to toe with me.

We are also trying to upgraded or change the chat server and maybe we can have some scheduled chats where we can get together and work stuff out. The community is in trouble, we are just trying to fix it.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:12 pm 
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Well, I wouldn't mess with the money-sharing inside a team. Otherwise, the bigger players can't help out the smaller ones to defend themselves, which means that the whole theory about how people should be able to attack team members based on the highest player on the team's score goes down the tubes.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:42 pm 
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Valience wrote:
Well, I wouldn't mess with the money-sharing inside a team. Otherwise, the bigger players can't help out the smaller ones to defend themselves, which means that the whole theory about how people should be able to attack team members based on the highest player on the team's score goes down the tubes.


Actually they can. A larger team member can upgrade planets help set defense, without giving that player a dime. If you turn off team cash, a team mate can help build your empire and defend it. Giving you good starts on planet production. What it doesn't do is give you credits to go fight with. But saying this, what it does do is give you credits from your own empire to fund attacks at your score level.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Well, I'm still very opposed to this. If all this stuff went through, I think I'd stop playing. It would really ruin the whole point of teaming.

I just think this is all really excessive, and while you may fix a few relatively small problems, you create much larger ones.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:18 pm 
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Valience wrote:
Well, I'm still very opposed to this. If all this stuff went through, I think I'd stop playing. It would really ruin the whole point of teaming.

I just think this is all really excessive, and while you may fix a few relatively small problems, you create much larger ones.


Val, in essence, what eliminating team cash does is force you to play more like a team not less. What the problem with that? You could then get rid of the bounty stuff on teams.

I play using my own credits so never have an issue with team cash. It forces you to build an empire for credits. Much like any job.

We do allow the cash transfers via IGB, I dont have a problem with how that works at all. The ultimate goal here isn't to neuter the game to death, I am not for that at all. Its to find equitable solutions so we have players that will play.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:38 pm 
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But teammates that can't even give each other a little financial boost! Come on! That's just too much. It doesn't seem like it should have to go that far.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:32 pm 
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Valience wrote:
But teammates that can't even give each other a little financial boost! Come on! That's just too much. It doesn't seem like it should have to go that far.


Well if you go back in time and look at other versions of the game, they called it an exploit. You can still get a 100 bill boost through IGB, whats wrong with that?

Technically, if a player added 3 bill coll to one of your planets he just gave you money, while you may not get it immediately, you get it for the long haul.

You really need to get credit sharing out of your head, that's really where all stem of the problems reside. You want to get rid of the team bounty limit something has to change somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:29 am 
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Well I'm glad to see your starting to think like me Tarnus. Eliminating team cash is a big step in the right direction. It doesn't solve everything related to the fiasco thats been going on this round, and HAS been goig on forever basically. The game still suffers from some of the problems BNT does. Team cash isn't really realistic anyways. If you combine removing team cash with limiting how effective other methods of transfer are, then problems are pretty much solved. People can still receive funds through the IGB; which is fine as long as the other methods of transfer are fixed up a bit. This 5b versus 35, or whatever Kwae was takin about shouldn't even be possible except for when players wind up on the opposite good/evil alignment of higher players because of their actions.

So there is no coding needed for the above. There would be for what i'm about to suggest, whcih is needed. Planets currently do not upgrade themselves nearly fast enough to handle the snowballers. When a planet goes independent, the colonists should automatically upgrade its defenses, energy, AND deploy sds... If its a planet that Jonh doe Snowballer left with credits and no colonists, then that planets current credits just start severely dwindling Immediately (Like Organics) because Theres no colos to look after things.

Holla & out :)

PS. Valience should only be allowed to have signatures with avatars of Chicken Little with his glasses on. :P hehe


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Deux
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:23 am 
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Even if you remove team cash that doesn't remove the problem of players getting huge ships that shouldn't through planet captures. A player can put a huge ship on a planet with nothing other than a base and let the person capture it and the planet. Then you have quick cash planets for the person to take if they need cash.

We are looking at a couple of ways to fix that and if they work out we can remove the team attack limits we added. The problem isn't so much the transfer of cash. The REAL problem is a player being able to have a ship that is way outside their means to support with their planet production levels.



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