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 Post subject: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:27 pm 
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We are going to have another discussion in the chat room on the main site at 9 pm Central Time US.

http://chat.aatraders.com/flashchat.php

This discussion will be about the changes we will be proposing in this announcement.

We are going to remove the team attack restriction that was added in the last Bounty Change post. This will make all of the teams very happy. :) The biggest problem we have found is how small players can get ships far outside what they should be able to afford at their current rank. This is because players on the same team will fund the low ranked player so they can get a massive attack ship while having very few planets. The same thing can happen with players not on a team by gaining cash from undefended planets. The experienced players know what I am talking about.

One of the proposals was to remove team cash from the game and only allow it in tournament games but many players haven't liked that idea either. It restricts the players so they can't help others on the team by giving them money to rebound after an attack.

Proposed Change

The proposed change is similar to the limit placed on Nova Bombs where you have to have a certain sized ship to use the bomb. What we propose is to tie the type of ship you can attack with to your planetary infrastructure. Small ships like the Columbus and below are immune to this proposal.

If you want to use an Endeavour or larger ship you will need to have the planetary infrastructure to support the ship before you can use the ship to attack anyone. What this means is you will need to have the planets or technology on those planets to support the ship as an ATTACK vessel. If you want to use an Endeavour as an attack ship you will need to have the planetary equivalent of 10-20 times the value of the Endeavour. The 10-20 times value is not set in stone and may be moved up or down after extensive testing. This is based only on the tech value of the planets. The credits, colonists, torps, fighters and commodities will not be counted in the value of the planetary support structure. This leaves things free as to how the player would like to setup their planetary infrastructure. If the player wants to have 1, 10 or hundreds of planets they can as long the tech values meet the support value needed for the ship. The support value of the ship is based upon the initial cost of the ship plus the cost of all the tech levels currently on the ship.

You can still own and pilot these ships when you don't have the planetary infrastructure but you will not be allowed to ATTACK ANY ship or planet. Others can still attack you and your ship WILL defend itself but you cannot initiate an attack. If you enter a sector with enemy sector defenses the battle will be like if you entered a sector with SD for a bounty level player. You will take damage and lose your fighters and torps.

An indicator will be added to the main screen, ship report page and scan pages to let you know if your ship can be used for an attack.

This change will let players move money around without restricting players on a team from attacking other players. Players will only be able to attack other players with certain ships if they have the planetary infrastructure to support those ships.

This change also addresses the concern some had if a player has almost all of their planets taken. The players will still have access to their ships and be able to use them to build up again. We are also considering allowing players to sell back tech levels on their ships at a HUGE discount. In other words your tech levels may only be worth 1/4 their original value if you sell them back. We would also have to change the score calculation to reflect the reduced value of ship tech levels. Your score would go down when you bought tech levels for your ships. Consider this the same as buying a new car. It depreciates a large amount as soon as you drive it off the lot.

Be sure to stop by the chat room linked above and discuss the proposed changes. We want your input and nothing is set in stone at this time



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:49 pm 
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That's way way way off.

I'm posting because bed time is 9 so I won't be able to make the chat.

With 35 tech 255 planets, I can make 30T/day. 35 255 planets cost 60B*35 = 2.1T

That means I can't even use ONE DAY'S worth of production in a ship!!!!!!! Not even a single day!!!! I would be making 30T/day, and I could use 100B-200B of it in a ship! WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY off.

I like the idea of basing bounties on ships, but what you've suggested is just loony!

By the way, for some more proportion, here's another example:

If I want to spend 500T on a ship (not far off from end game approximate goal), I need to have 5-10 QD in planets. We'll go low and say 5.

5,000,000,000,000,000/60,000,000,000 = 500,000/6= 83333 planets.

83333 planets would make me approximately 83333 * 6/7 = 71429T per day. I'm making 71 quadrillion a day and I can spend 500T of it on a ship. Nice.


Last edited by Valience on Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Valience wrote:
That's way way way off.

I'm posting because bed time is 9 so I won't be able to make the chat.

With 35 tech 255 planets, I can make 30T/day. 35 255 planets cost 60B*35 = 2.1T

That means I can't even use ONE DAY'S worth of production in a ship!!!!!!! Not even a single day!!!! I would be making 30T/day, and I could use 100B-200B of it in a ship! WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY off.

I like the idea of basing bounties on ships, but what you've suggested is just loony!


Well Val, I can tell your not willing to have an open mind. Go stomp your feet and goto bed, we are all gonna discuss it rather than throwing a tantrum.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:02 pm 
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What do you mean no open mind!!!

Look at what your saying!

An open mind is considering propositions without bias. When I first started reading that post, not only was I not biased against it, but I was thinking it was looking like a good idea. Then, when I saw the numbers, it went down the drain.

Just look at what I said. Have an open mind about that.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:05 pm 
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Valience wrote:
That means I can't even use ONE DAY'S worth of production in a ship!!!!!!! Not even a single day!!!! I would be making 30T/day, and I could use 100B-200B of it in a ship! WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY off.


You might want to actually read and then understand what I posted. The production on the planet has nothing to do with being able to use the ship. It is based off the total value of the tech levels of all the planets compared to the value of the ship and tech levels on the ship. Your planets could be producing absolutely NOTHING and it wouldn't change anything related to being able to use the ship.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:36 pm 
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I think the changes are interesting though I don't quite understand yet how they work it would be interesting to see others responses concerning this. Unfortunately I can't seem to get into chat so would not be able to discuss this anyways ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:09 pm 
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darkon1365 wrote:
I think the changes are interesting though I don't quite understand yet how they work it would be interesting to see others responses concerning this. Unfortunately I can't seem to get into chat so would not be able to discuss this anyways ;-)


Alot of great people and ideas in chat. Hope to see more people next time. Remember this is all planning, nothing is in stone yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:03 am 
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:( Missed the brainstorm meeting, maybe next time.

Based on this scenerio, how would the planet tech loss effect the remaining ship?

Player-A has massive planetary holdings in a primary sg with only a few planets within a team mates sg. Player-Z breaks down the gates of Player-A and captures all but.....ahh...let's say 5 planets. Player-Z destroys a few but most are left stripped and undefended, though Player-A is not privy to that intel yet, only knows the planets are removed from their holdings.

Now.........Player-A is sitting in an Excel with only holding about 10 credit planets in team mates sg and the five remaining credit planets in the invaded sg. How would basing the USE of the attack ship in connection with planet TECH affect Player-A's ability to go back into that sg to attempt to reclaim the captured planets?


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:19 am 
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Sorry for the double post but since this is racing through my mind this morning I feel compelled to toss another scenerio.

True attackers.........those that are as devoted to attacking as I am engrained as a builder.....example such as Shesshomaru.......I can see where this massive change to the game structure would eliminate that sort of player. They would be forced to build an empire to support their attack ship instead of just stealing it from others. I understand the reasons for the proposed brainstorming, but you don't want to cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face, as my grandmother would have said.

I could see this in a PvP game but not so much in a Team game. As a roleplayer, I envision my empire with me Queen *giggling* and my gold supports my hired protector (buys him the necessary repairs, ships, whatever is needed) for the good of my empire. The Queen's protector in real life would not be required to have holdings to match the Queen's assets to fly her ship. Anyway, hopefully you understand what I am trying to portray.

Another idea might be for independent players (with NO team affiliation/support) remain in the same bounty set up. BUT teams can only attack teams. A low player on a team is ALWAYS at risk due to the expanded bounty range......so it becomes the whole team's responsibilty to build, fund and protect their assets.......including the FUNDED ship. Hmmm....now reading this idea over probabably doesn't address the problem of hired independent thugs. :(

This is tough........


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:29 am 
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If I understand this correctly, I am with philly on this one. Also by Jack's own post, it seems a bit tough on fighting back.

So if I am at attacker/builder mode towards the end of the game where I can't steal enough to go up, and someone hits my major guard planets, I cannot take back those sectors, because my main ship is now too big compaired to my planet tech levels.
Lets say I have the score in money/ colonists/planet goods to support the money level necessary to own and upgrade this ship, but all my planets are now low tech level, or most of my planets have been wiped out.
I do not see how that player could fight back. I would not even be able to take back my abandoned planets, or indy's.

I think my original plan to prevent transfers of large ships would be better. I see how it does not cover large money transfers through igb or planet drops.
Perhaps a hybrid of the two. Prevent ship drops like I proposed, and instead of preventing attacks, prevent purchases by tech level due to planet tech.
This way, at the very least, an attacker can continue to fight in their current ship, but may not be able to upgrade. Not perfect, but far better than having to strip my levels to fight.
I know in several games to get planets back, or to do damage to an attacker, I have had to upgrade with cash in igb, or money on hand to be able to attack, but again, it is better to be able to attack, then not if it is necessary to prevent other abuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:47 pm 
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For those that may not know I am the Fourth Horseman in the current game. For me the main reason of doing the score drop was to be able to protect the assets that we as a team have worked hard to get. Either as a deterrent or a response to an attack. So here is my suggestion.

Have a retaliation period added to the game. Just like other things it needs to be semi harsh, just like the bounties. For a determined period of time 12 or 24 a player has the ability to respond bounty free. In addition to that have the person that has been attacked, they have the ability to take an additional 33% of what has been attacked. if a player gets 6 planets, then the response could be set to 8 planets. Also all sector defenses are bounty free.

This would then negate a teams need to have a player drop score. This would also deal with the hired thug problem. There would be no need to hire them and deal with players that are a problem for you. It would also be a deterrent for a player to accept a large sum of cash from someone for attacking other players. They may be able to attack the planet they want, but would be open to reprisal. And if the responder just happens to know where you sleep/hide, oh well. It would force or encourage a player to play more in their range.

There is never going to be a solution that everyone is happy with. But the solutions presented so far seem more of a punishment for success and loss, than a solution to a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:05 pm 
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Quote:
You might want to actually read and then understand what I posted. The production on the planet has nothing to do with being able to use the ship. It is based off the total value of the tech levels of all the planets compared to the value of the ship and tech levels on the ship. Your planets could be producing absolutely NOTHING and it wouldn't change anything related to being able to use the ship.


PJ, what makes me really mad about you is that you read what I post, you don't understand it, and then you accuse me of not understanding youe post. It's really dumb. I didn't suggest that daily production had anything to do with it. I was pointing out that I wouldn't even be able to use my daily production. If this concept is beyond you, then give up on everything now; you're not competent. If that's not beyond you, then go back and re-read what I posted, so that you actually understand it this time. You clearly didn't understand it the first time you read it. Then, try responding with some sense.

Quote:
If you want to use an Endeavour as an attack ship you will need to have the planetary equivalent of 10-20 times the value of the Endeavour.


That means, If I want a 500T ship, I need 5-10 QD in planetary techs. I use planets at level 255 for production. That costs about 60 billion credits.

So, I hope you can follow a simple math problem.

60B * x = 5QD

where x is the number of planets I need.

5,000,000 B / 60B = 500,000/6 = 83333 planets.

If I want a 500T ship, I need 83,333 planets at tech 255. Does that make sense to you?

Those planets would produce around 72 quadrillion credits a day. I would be making 72 quadrillion a day, and I could use 500T of that...

Side note: 72QD/500T = 1/144 That means that I can use one one hudred forty fourth of my daily production on a ship. This ratio will hold true for all examples of consolidating once a day, and with 255 techs on planets.

Can you understand? Do you comprehend? Talking to you shouldn't have to be like talking to a five year old...



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Val before going crazy on a subject that has been discussed in a chat you didn't attend, perhaps look at what others have posted. Quit yelling and screaming there are problems when you have not made a suggest solution. Everyone else is trying to throw a hand into helping with the problem, and all you are doing is hollering about a potential change that may or may not occur.

"Help me, to help you!" ..... "Show me the MONEY!" ... couldn't help the mindless movie quote. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:20 pm 
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Wrong again, Tarnus, and now you've shown that you have not read my previous posts either.

Quote:
I have an alternative then. Bounties based on ship size.

The game should take the total net value of all of a player's ships, and then compare it to another player's score and/or total net worth. If the other player's score is below a certain fraction (this exact value will take some experimenting to get perfectly balanced, but it's possible) of the player's ship value, then they will be bounty.

This way, no one with a huge ship and no planets can attack small (score wise) players, but it doesn't stop big players from becoming safe by just buying a small ship and selling the big ones, since it's determined ship to score, not ship to ship, which would be unfair, or score to score, as it is now.


That sounds like a suggestion to me. At least, it was meant to be a suggestion. In fact, it sounds like a very good suggestion. This way, people could still go all ship and no planets if they wanted, but they wouldn't be able to attack anyone below them, or even at their own level.

So, basically, I did already suggest something. Then PJ suggested something much worse. I told him so, and now you're saying instead of pointing out the flaws in the proposed solution, I should be suggesting something myself, even though I already have.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:22 pm 
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MadMArdigan666 wrote:
Have a retaliation period added to the game. Just like other things it needs to be semi harsh, just like the bounties. For a determined period of time 12 or 24 a player has the ability to respond bounty free. In addition to that have the person that has been attacked, they have the ability to take an additional 33% of what has been attacked. if a player gets 6 planets, then the response could be set to 8 planets. Also all sector defenses are bounty free.

...

There is never going to be a solution that everyone is happy with. But the solutions presented so far seem more of a punishment for success and loss, than a solution to a problem.



You are right.... I don't like it.

Case: player A got 100 points, player B 10 points
B defeats 6 planets of player A (each planet worth 1 point). This brings player A down to 94 points and player B up to 16 points. with your suggestion player A should be able to take 8 planets back.... That makes (in my point of view) it worse now the bounty-range is put aside and the gap between the players bigger. The player with more points should be able to defend themself against player outside the bountyrange. no need to give them tools to be brutal.


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