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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:15 pm 
AA Warrior
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I'm trying to explain what is common sense to me. You have been telling me that I'm wrong, but have demonstrated multiple times that you don't understand what I'm saying.

You have not been reasonable. You did not take the time to point out what about my argument was wrong so that I would understand the situation better. You accused me of misunderstanding, but did not try to rectify the problem so that I could contribute to the discussion once I understood. I still think that I understood from the first.

Instead of using logic to point out flaws in what I was saying, as I did for you, you simply decided to tell me that I was wrong. Any imbecile can just sit there and repeat those four words: "No, you don't understand," or "No, you are wrong." If you had some sense, you could take the time to explain yourself, as I have. And choosing to ignore those who point out flaws in your idea is one of the most immature things you could do. It completely contradicts the point of constructive crticism. If you're not going to consider what could be wrong with your idea in the time before you implement it, you ought to just go ahead and stick it onto the main game. If you ignore anyone who opposes you, you're obviously not going to change your mind about it, so put it in now.

I don't care if you respond. I believe you when you say you will not, but hopefully you will at least read what I've said and realize how idiotic you've been. If not that, maybe this will make others realize how futile intelligent debate with you is.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:46 pm 
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Val,
while you think you are being productive... Your not. I've read everyone elses responses and they have been very productive. Your re hashing an argument that was at the beginning of this thread. We dont have time to debate or answer your every whim. I suggested to PJ that we just not let you post here for a while and he said thats wasnt a good idea.

If you contunue, I will throw you into moderation only and not answer you as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:56 pm 
AA Warrior
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Once again, you ignore the fact that I've put forward what seems to me to be a good idea for bounties. It may not be a good idea, but no one has tried to convince me otherwise. Only MM has even mentioned it.

And the reason I keep repeating the same thing is because it seems so much to me that everyone is ignoring me. I think I have a point, but no one considers it. Worse, they don't even take the time to point out what about what I'm saying is wrong. If someone actually explained what was wrong with my argument, I would stop arguing it, but no one has. PJ has just told me that I'm wrong without justifying his claim.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:05 pm 
AA Trader
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Hey Tarnus.

Val, if that is your sugguestion below, then here is what is wrong with it.

If as a legit attacker, I get hammered back into the stone age, I can no longer hit people below me to build back up again.
It fixes the exploit, but hurts actual game play.
So as a player that got podded, but I still have money to buy a ship, I can no longer attack people at my level if I can afford to buy a large ship.
You have to balance the fixing the problem with what else does it affect.

[quote="Valience"]Wrong again, Tarnus, and now you've shown that you have not read my previous posts either.

[quote]I have an alternative then. Bounties based on ship size.

The game should take the total net value of all of a player's ships, and then compare it to another player's score and/or total net worth. If the other player's score is below a certain fraction (this exact value will take some experimenting to get perfectly balanced, but it's possible) of the player's ship value, then they will be bounty.

This way, no one with a huge ship and no planets can attack small (score wise) players, but it doesn't stop big players from becoming safe by just buying a small ship and selling the big ones, since it's determined ship to score, not ship to ship, which would be unfair, or score to score, as it is now.[/quote]

That sounds like a suggestion to me. At least, it was meant to be a suggestion. In fact, it sounds like a very good suggestion. This way, people could still go all ship and no planets if they wanted, but they wouldn't be able to attack anyone below them, or even at their own level.

So, basically, I did already suggest something. Then PJ suggested something much worse. I told him so, and now you're saying instead of pointing out the flaws in the proposed solution, I should be suggesting something myself, even though I already have.[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:50 pm 
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There`s too much "you`re not listening to me" going on here. We need to avoid this, so here`s my idea to make sure people are being listened to: anyone making suggestions for the game should adhere to 2 basic rules:

1. Anything you say is wrong, so don`t bother.
2. If, after reading rule #1, you still think you have a good idea, refer to rule #1.

This way, everyone can be sure their ideas are being presented. :chill:


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:09 pm 
AA Warrior
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:20 pm
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First, Ash, I would like to thank you for offering constructive criticism. Here is my response.

Quote:
If as a legit attacker, I get hammered back into the stone age, I can no longer hit people below me to build back up again.
It fixes the exploit, but hurts actual game play.
So as a player that got podded, but I still have money to buy a ship, I can no longer attack people at my level if I can afford to buy a large ship.
You have to balance the fixing the problem with what else does it affect.


No, you can't buy a very large ship. But if as long as you stick to 35% of your total worth, you'll have the same bounty restrictions that you have now. You're still free to upgrade more, but you won't be able to attack as many people, you're right. You must see it from the other person's point of view. If you could do that, they would see it as an exploit. It may be less intentional than what is currently going on, but not different at all.

My suggestion leaves you free to decide how much money you spend on your ship, and therefore you get to decide who you can attack and who you cannot. If you could dump all your available cash into a ship and still attack people below you, we'd have the same problem that started this whole thing, so it really should be stopped.

I'd also like to point out that under PJ's system, if this same thing happened and you lost all your planets, you wouldn't be able to get much of a ship at all. At least this system leaves the choice up to the player.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:34 pm 
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wctinnell wrote:
There`s too much "you`re not listening to me" going on here. We need to avoid this, so here`s my idea to make sure people are being listened to: anyone making suggestions for the game should adhere to 2 basic rules:

1. Anything you say is wrong, so don`t bother.
2. If, after reading rule #1, you still think you have a good idea, refer to rule #1.

This way, everyone can be sure their ideas are being presented. :chill:


LOL thats a good one.

Here's a better one.

1 Anything Val says is wrong.
2 If after you read #1 post your idea and we will consider it as long as your name isnt val ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:44 pm 
AA Warrior
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 532
Racist! I mean... er.. Sexist! I mean.. umm.. Agist! No, no... Name-ist! That's it! You guys are name-ists! Discrimination! Repression!! Help!

Hehe..

Pj, I realize you think you're too good to read anything I say, but here's hoping you do, now that I've calmed down:

You've created a great game so far. I really enjoy it. Otherwise, I wouldn't put so much effort into this. You must recognize that I am in support of your game. From my point of view, I am trying to save the creation for a slight error in judgement on the part of the creator. So there's no reason for either of us to get so worked up. I apologize for my part, but don't assume that I feel as if you haven't done wrong yourself.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:49 pm 
Trial
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Ok, I'm a newer player, and this might be a dumb idea, but I'll suggest it anyways since it does address a few of the problems all at once.

Instead of going through all this trouble to try and protect newer players and keep things balanced at the same time, which as we know, anything you create people will find a way around, why not put the control right in the players hands? My suggestion would be this, allow the players themselves to decide when they're ready to join the game.

Create a protected mode of sorts during which players can neither attack, nor Be attacked or in fact effect other players in any way while they're in protected mode. But here's the catch, once you choose to come out of protected mode, it takes 24 hours(suggested to avoid problems with sneak attacks) to do so and then, in my opinion anyways, you're out for good, and are vulnerable to everyone who's already out.

Advantages to this suggestion:

1.Eliminates the whole bounty issue entirely. If you come out, you're vulnerable to everyone. Get destroyed? You'll learn better for next time.

2.Allows newer players time to actually learn the game without being wiped out. This will encourage more to stay.

3.Eliminates the hired guns problem since it would no longer be beneficial to do so.

4.Eliminates the problem of large cash drops to smaller players, since it would restrict those in protected to IGB transfer only, which is already limited.

5.I could be wrong but I believe most of the code for this is already in place, just purposed to other things.

Potential Drawbacks:

1.May result in a slower game, at least in the first week or two. Though I don't think this will be as big a problem as it may first appear since many players have said repeatedly that they enjoy the challenge of combat etc, so will likely come out of protected early and take their chances.

2. Forces attackers to be builders as well. I could be wrong, but most of the suggestions so far seem to require this to happen, though if I'm correct that many will come out early anyways for the challenge, it might not be a large problem.

3. Some players will never leave protected mode. This is a chance yes, but, I don't think it will be that big of a problem since I think most will eventually get bored of just working on their planets and want the challenge of seeing if they've built well. Besides, if it says right in the rankings that they're in protected mode, there's not nearly as much satisfaction at having a high score.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, like I said, possibly a dumb idea but I figured I would suggest it anyways since it occured to me this morning.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:18 pm 
AA Warrior
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I don't thinks it's a bad idea, and it's been suggested before, but it doesn't do everything you said it does.

Quote:
Eliminates the whole bounty issue entirely. If you come out, you're vulnerable to everyone. Get destroyed? You'll learn better for next time.


No, because once you come out, you're still not going to be necessarily very big. You still need protection from the really huge guys. If you don't come out, you'll grow too big. No one will be able to take you down since you're still in protected mode. Some of the more experienced players would be unstoppable. They can build to the sky if left alone. Then, once their massive, they can just come out of protected mode and massacre absolutely everyone.

First, there would have to be a max score. Once you pass this score, you're out of protected mode for good. Second, you still need bounties.

Quote:
Allows newer players time to actually learn the game without being wiped out. This will encourage more to stay.


They learn some, but the most important things you can learn in this game are how to attack, and how to avoid attack. Like this, they can't learn either.

Quote:
Eliminates the hired guns problem since it would no longer be beneficial to do so.


First, I don't think that playing as a sort of mercenary is a bad thing. It's a fair part of the game as long as the player doesn't have too massive a ship for their size. Second, it wouldn't eliminate it, because once you're out of the protected thing, it would still be profitable to do that. But I wouldn't want it eliminated anyway.

Quote:
Eliminates the problem of large cash drops to smaller players, since it would restrict those in protected to IGB transfer only, which is already limited.


Only to an extent. Once a player came out of the protected thing, they could still be recieving cash, and no one would really have any reason to give them cash when they're not allowed to attack anyone.

Quote:
May result in a slower game, at least in the first week or two. Though I don't think this will be as big a problem as it may first appear since many players have said repeatedly that they enjoy the challenge of combat etc, so will likely come out of protected early and take their chances.


Actually, most of the beginning of the game is trading anyway. It wouldn't have much of an effect on that.

Quote:
Forces attackers to be builders as well. I could be wrong, but most of the suggestions so far seem to require this to happen, though if I'm correct that many will come out early anyways for the challenge, it might not be a large problem.


Well, even with the way the game is set up now, attackers still have to build to an extent (unless they have a bigger friend funneling cash to them). And yeah, the could just come out early, so it wouldn't do much in that regard.

Quote:
Some players will never leave protected mode. This is a chance yes, but, I don't think it will be that big of a problem since I think most will eventually get bored of just working on their planets and want the challenge of seeing if they've built well. Besides, if it says right in the rankings that they're in protected mode, there's not nearly as much satisfaction at having a high score.


The problem would not be with them coming out of protected mode, it would be with them waiting to come out. They could just stay protected until they got really massive, and then come out and kill everyone. As I said, some of the really good builders out there could build to the stars if they didn't have to worry about other players attacking them. Some can build to the stars even with other players attacking them.

I honestly dont' think it's a bad idea. It's just that it couldn't be implemented exactly as you described it, and it wouldn't do quite everything you've said that it'll do. It wouldn't quite address the problem at hand either, but it would still be a good thing to have.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:53 pm 
Trial
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Val,

Thanks for responding, you gave some things to think about that I hadn't considered :)

I actually agree with you on putting a max score before it forces you out of protection, it was something I'd debated on, but figured against mentioning it since I figured once someone came out of protection, no matter how big they are, being vulnerable to all the better attackers would decimate them quickly. Thanks for pointing out the error in my logic :)


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Here is another potential idea that has merit. Flawed in some regards but provides a starting point. The main thing I like about it is this, protects those that need to be protected and it gives more control to the player. You could still have a bounty system in place with this, but in a much reduced capacity. the bigger your score the more people can hit you and at a certain point the bounty system no longer applies . I know some players just enjoy building and moving and chatting with others. Include an option in there for those players, A builder mode. And eliminate team and personal cash transfers and team play for those players.


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:48 pm 
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MadMArdigan666 wrote:
Here is another potential idea that has merit. Flawed in some regards but provides a starting point. The main thing I like about it is this, protects those that need to be protected and it gives more control to the player. You could still have a bounty system in place with this, but in a much reduced capacity. the bigger your score the more people can hit you and at a certain point the bounty system no longer applies . I know some players just enjoy building and moving and chatting with others. Include an option in there for those players, A builder mode. And eliminate team and personal cash transfers and team play for those players.



I had a thought similar, but what I thought was more of a team vs team. If you declared war with another team, all bounties between those teams are dissolved. The declaration would have to be agreed to by both teams and those teams set a time for battle. Say min 24 hours and a max of 1 week. There would be a 24 hour delay before the war began, but once both teams agreed to it there is no turning back till the war time expires. I think its more on an ego thing than anything else. But would create an interesting sub plot ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:57 pm 
AA Warrior
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I had almost an identical thought. I like this. These are some great suggestions for the game we're getting, but they digress from the initial topic.



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 Post subject: Re: Main Game Bounty Change Part Tres
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:59 pm 
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That is a very interesting idea. It would really encourage a new form of team play and development. It would indeed create an interesting sub plot.


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