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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:00 am 
AA Trader
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The problem with losing attack and run style stuff is that if you are in range for the person you just attacked, nothing changes.
You don't get the credit boost you were looking for to build your ship to attack a bigger planet.
I know that is partial the intent of this fix, but by fixing the exploit, you take away the only reason an attacker plays the game.

I guess the more I read, the worse this is to me.
If you want a game of builders, then make it that way, don't force attackers to be builders.
I agree with tonto, this changes only how attackers play. Builders stay the same.

Many a game I have come back from the last page to the first page in score because I found someone's hole. If I had to wait 4 days to retrieve that money, I would be put right back down to the bottom again, with nothing to show for it, other than a lower score because I spent so much money on attack and runs and repairs to my ship.
Even worse now with the attack and run code changed, and no nova bombs to help soften up sector d.

Yep you can't make everyone happy.


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:14 pm 
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In the long run it will be good. You can blame the guys that used the cash for evil. :)

It makes for a harder game sure, but you can bet I will still be able to attack stuff and will make the dollars off those planets. There may be some adjustments or additions that you may see come into play. Maybe some new probes to help an attacker protect their new found booty.

It's my oppinion that no one should be a 100% safe and there should always be away to do something. It may cost, it may have to do with blind luck etc. But there should be a way. This is a big change, and don't think builders will have it any easier, we have plans for them to. Its all about balance :)



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:17 pm 
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To take out SD you need high levels to AR which get damaged and cost a large amount to get repaired, then you go in and instead of taking 100bn creds of a planet to supplant this cost, you get 5-15bn a planet, IF you want to break even for taking the SG you have to invest in significant SD which costs more credits which you probably wont have after repairing your ship and defend for up to 4 days; but you NEED to repair those levels on your ship to help defend the SG from the player you took it from. You just took out the one advantage to being an attacker, get in quick, hurt the player, leave nothing to retaliate against or worry about, and supplant the costs of attacking from what you make off the planets. No reason to be an attacker anymore since it's most likey going to cost more to attack a lair than what you'll make. Even if you can hold it from that player, if i had someone take out one of my SGs, that location would be known by every player in the game. I can see doing this early in the game, but perhaps after planets reach a certain max credit level IE 50 bn, those planets can only hide 50% since there are so many credits.


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:27 pm 
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It's amazing, that everyone comes screaming out of the woodwork when we are implementing the change, but when we were discussing how to fix the problems, where were you guys?

The choices were this way, or the other option PJ outlined. This fixed the most problems with the least amount of hindrances AND it makes sense in a real world mentality.

You want the good cash, bump the shields high and leave it. The guy coming to take it back is in for the same issues as you are. I guarantee I will stll attack and I will hold the planets and get enough credits to make it worth my time.

As I said in the previous message, don't knock it till you try it. And if you read my initial message that outlines this scenario (that everyone liked) It makes perfect sense. When was the last time you invaded a city and all the citizens handed you the loot? It doesn't happen, you have to work to find it and keep it.

This fixes so many more problems than it causes.

I can remember most of the good changes came with arguments. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Here is the thing, no reason a player shouldn't posses all 3 skill sets needed to play this game. Trading, Attacking and Building, is one of those things all players need to do at some point in the game. No reason why someone can't build up to 50 planets to help sustain them during their conquests. Lets look back at when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Iraq pillaged the entire country. It took time to find all they took, then it took time for them to get it out. This is no different then what is being proposed in the game. Anyone reading these forums can go through my post and find my numerous objections to many changes(probably most of them), but this one I like. It does solve issues that were happening in the game, the fact that they are making these changes shows how the Admins want a balanced game. If these changes aren't working or need tweaking, the Admins will be quick in making those changes.

Its going to require players to be smarter in how they do things. Sure you might loose that quick grab of a couple hundred bill or so. But needing to hang onto the planet longer will do far more for than the immediate cash grab. The ability to hurt the opponent is still there, you just need up to 4 days to reap all the benefit. As they said, spies and digs will help you find more and faster.

Keep this in mind, this game is all about skill (and luck sometimes). This will help newer players grow and prosper at the beginning as all targets may not be worth attacking any longer. this will give them a bit of a chance to grow and learn. Team bounty is removed so it once again opens the playing field for attackers on teams. 4 days and its it, all money is yours. IF the planet you attacked wasn't held for 4 days by the player you attacked you could still get richer yet. How is that not a benefit? I personally am looking forward to this change and playing with it, its only going to improve the game in my mind. Anyone that doesn't know who I was( and am on the beta server) The Fourth Horseman. Attacking was my big thing last round, and it will be in this round as well. Give It a chance, if it works then good. If not it will be fixed or tweaked till it does.


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:38 pm 
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I agree that pushing players to learn all facets of the game is important. It should be natural anyway; a builder who doesn't know anything about attacking can only guess with their defense. Everyone will need to see just how this affects attacking and therefore defending, so I think it does affect builders, if only indirectly.

One other quick question. A smaller player captures a larger player's planet, but is still bounty to them. Possible? That would be a royal pain, but I suppose it would be chalked up to stupidity on the larger player's part for not adequately defending...


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:56 pm 
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InstinctSage wrote:
I agree that pushing players to learn all facets of the game is important. It should be natural anyway; a builder who doesn't know anything about attacking can only guess with their defense. Everyone will need to see just how this affects attacking and therefore defending, so I think it does affect builders, if only indirectly.

One other quick question. A smaller player captures a larger player's planet, but is still bounty to them. Possible? That would be a royal pain, but I suppose it would be chalked up to stupidity on the larger player's part for not adequately defending...


You are correct, but you have to be careful should the small player capture a credit loaded planet, he might be bumped up within that players bounty range but not realize it because he cannot see the credits. I'm pushing PJ to put some sort of message near the credits that notifies the player that planetary holding are being gathered through intel. Once the message is gone, you know what you have. Just remember to bump the planet high enough to compensate for thoise rewards :)



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:27 pm 
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Captured Planet Credits -- (Ouch to attackers!)
Interesting Idea... Certainly creates a potential "money sink" (where money is removed from the universal economy). This will slow down the growth of many empires. Score -1 to the attackers.

-----> I would recommend a solution in the case of players getting access to so much cash so fast that they can outgun anything in thier range is to just force the networth of the player to skyrocket when they have a ship that is so much larger than thier planetary bases. Now, if they manage to get a huge chunk of credits, and I already can think of one instant credit scheme not covered, the score will jump up so fast that they end up in a much higher bracket than before and now they end up having to do battle with the "big boys".


Team Cash -- (Ouch to BUILDERS)
Quote:
Players on a team can now only transfer cash from a team cash planet ONCE per day. The amount they can transfer is 1/4th the maximum amount they could get from the IGB as a loan.


Major ouch on the teamwork front here. Builders all the time help each other out by skimming off of each others planets that are maxxed out. Score -1 to the Builders.

Not, to mention when someone is knocking on the front door and you are the only person who is online for your team you used to be the guy who could grab all the cash an run. Not so any more. Score +1 to the attackers.

-----> A better solution would be you can remove from as many team cash planets as you want in a day but you can never exceed the 1/4 IGB loan max.

Captured Ships -- (Ouch to Both!)
This one always made me LOL. I have seen both attackers and builders use the "team ship" strat. Makes for quick population if everyone has access to a level 30 hull with only 5 days of game time under the belt!


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:16 am 
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Can't wait till PJ gets the new stuff on the server and we can see it in action. Nothing I will love more than seeing players earn their own keep :)

Lazy players beware, I am coming for your planets. I will not be playing defender this round... I will be what you expected last game.



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:32 am 
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I've been madly drumming up all my stats and working hard to nut out the little features here and there. I was hoping for a bit more time to get used to the game, but I'm pretty confident I won't be making any *major* mistakes this time around. Now I can't wait for the server to come back up. :o


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:57 am 
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I am trying to get a few minor kinks worked out as fast as I can as I will be gone for the 4th weekend. I will still be able to get online but usually at night or early morning. So I should be able to fix anything that might crop up but I would rather not. :) This is why I am taking a little longer than I thought to get the Main back up and running with the new code.



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:07 am 
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The best laid plans of mice and men, PJ... ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:21 am 
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Note: I didn't read all the responses in their entirity, and I apologize if something I'm about to say reflects that.

I think the first change is really going to hurt attackers. My style was to run into an SG, smash everything in sight, take all the money (a very nice sum since builders with only a few SGs often have large percentages of their net worth just sitting on planets), and then reduce the remains of the SG to smithereens so it could never be taken back.

With up to four days for the victim to recover lost funds, it's really far less profitable. Defending an SG is very expensive, especially if the enemy already knows where it is. I don't have that kind of money to put into an SG that I'm just going to be keeping for four days. It's not profitable. So that's out of the question. I'm almost never going to be able to hold onto these planets for the full duration. That means I don't get as much money.

Also, attackers can run up a very large bill taking an SG. I've in the past been forced to reduce my ship to almost nothing as far as techs go in the process of taking an SG just because, even after spending my max loan on repairs, I haven't had enough money to fix up the ship. And then, just barely, I manange to force my way into the SG with my crippled ship, and somehow I get one of the planets. Then I can start repairing my ship, and in the end, if the SG is big enough (and I don't do this to myself if it isn't big), I can pay off my loan and my repairs and have a profit left over besides. But now, that profit is going to be way smaller, so attacking just doesn't make very much business sense.

I do appreciate the fact that dignitaries and spies speed up the process.

And, very importantly, I do agree that the alternative to this was much worse.

So attacking used to be a source of income. Now it's a way for you to cut off your nose to spite the other guy's face. :\ Sure, you can eliminate competition still, but you can't make much money in the process.

I think what this will lead to is a bunch of builders just using attacking to help get rid of competition. You've killed the attacker, but not attacking.

And again, this is MUCH better than the alternative. That would kill the attacker AND attacking.

As far as the second change, I don't have a problem with it, but I would suggest allowing as many team cash transfers as necessary a day, but just limiting the total money transfered a day. That way, I can take one transfer for 1/4 my max loan (1/16 my net worth), or five transfers of 1/20 my max loan (1/80 my total net worth). It still adds up to 1/4 my max loan a day, and now I don't have to take it all at once. This just seems to make a little more sense, that's all.

The third change is good too. I've not suggestions for that.



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Too late val, all are implemented and appear to be progressing well :)

Welcome home :)



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 Post subject: Re: Major game changes coming this week...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:28 pm 
AA Warrior
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Thanks, though I'm sure many will be upset to see their holiday from me has ended.

None of these are really awful, just the first one makes attacking inconvenient. :P

So these are going into the main right away? And what's up with the beta? You guys have other new toys planned for that?



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