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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:19 pm 
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I think if you're risking bounty to have a spy on someone out of your range, you should receive a reward to make it worthwhile. Making the spy useless until the player is in your range (and therefore capable of detecting it) means the only reason to drop a spy on a bounty player is because once they're big enough you can't break/cloak through their SD to do it.


If there was a risk involved in the placement of spies on lower level players I wouldn't want them to remain inactive until the player grows, I'd want them to activate as normal as with anythings else. However if there is to be no risk of bounty I would like spies to function in a way that they won't be abused by targeting only lower ranked players. Having them remain inactive in that particular circumstance makes sense because any player should be able to have planetary sensors as high or higher than a ships cloak if they are in the same bounty range. Planetary tech upgrades are so much cheaper than ship techs there should be no reason why a person shouldn't be able to scan and catch that spy BEFORE it activates. However if they manage to make it within range of the spying player and haven't caught that spy, the spying player should recieve the benefits of marking that target.

However more than this I would rather see spies activate as normal as ever and only change the conditions for receiving a bounty. I believe if a spy successfully infiltrates a players planet than the federation has no way of knowing about it and thus cannot give you a bounty. However if the spy is caught during deployment, or while acting on the planet, or by a players scan, that spy is turned over to the federation and the player should recieve a bounty for it.

As for the rest of the message of course I agree, I don't think spying and information dealing was ever meant to be a legitimate method to play the game. Just like being a mercenary or hitman was likely never intended either. However players made their way in the game by spying and taking contracts from larger players. Since the earlier versions it seems alot of things have been done to limit the ability to do either. Really no choice. Information dealing and other contract jobs require the transfer of large amounts of funds to be worth doing and since apparently players also make large fund transactions to abuse the system there was nothing that could be done except remove it all together.

I believe the IGB used to have an unlimited fund amount and all cash was transfered via that. then that was removed because players put their cash there and had no risk of dropping in the ranks. Then of course spies used to be legal everywhere, they weren't always a bountied action. I don't know when but that got changed. And of course with the shorter games and the increased difficulty to obtain credits, the glorious stealth is almost impossible to obtain. it's a 3 or 4 quadrillion ship... anybody with that is probably already in an excelsior with better spy potential.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:05 pm 
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That's what I want. Bounty for caught spies, not placed spies.

As for transactions, that hinges on the possibility of a regulated inter-player trade system which remains discreet, yet can't be abused. A tricky one, indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:27 am 
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LordTonto wrote:
... rather I support Kwae Zar's thought that spies should always be able to be placed on planets but remain inactive until the player is within range or higher... creating a sort of sleeper cell. I believe this would increase the roll of spies in the game and cause a lot more players to actively scan their planets.


I agree with you there. It certainly would increase the roll of spies. And while the spies wouldn't take any direct action against the lower players you could set your spies to still hop around (or stay if you wanted). So, effectively, in addition to the sleeper cell premise, you get the lower player to unawaringly be your spy distribution network too.


Last edited by Kwae Zar on Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:42 am 
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InstinctSage wrote:
That's what I want. Bounty for caught spies, not placed spies.


This should never come about. It will even more greatly reduce the usage of spies. In the past some good ideas have come out of what can be done with spies which I will mention first. The others are what I believe original ideas. (Man, I need to get this in my blog).

Interrogation
One I recall right off the top of my head was "interrogation". If you catch a spy on a planet that has another spy on it you can attempt to interrogate that spy for information about who sent him, when, etc... ultimately if you get the 10 successful spies of your own vs the 1 caught spy to interrogate properly you have a chance to learn of a planet location.
Counter-Agent
There is a slim chance that if you catch a spy that he will agree to become a counter agent and begin reporting to you while still appearing to work for the original sender. This counter agent will jump on your main ship, but not report that he is moving to the original sender, and then will attempt to jump off and make his way back to the original senders planets and/or ships, or even other players planets, which if caught will report against the original sender.
Aggression Flag
A spy that is caught but that can not be Interrogated or turned into a counter agent will trip the aggression flag for a certain amount of time. Now regardless of rank and networth you can wreak your revenge!

InstinctSage wrote:
As for transactions, that hinges on the possibility of a regulated inter-player trade system which remains discreet, yet can't be abused. A tricky one, indeed.


Not so fast! Mercenary forums can be set up to all for the reward of certain items, like a quest, and can pay out when you meet this criteria. I admit this would be lots of work as each data source would need a way that the DB could uniquely identify it so that when the data was handed over it could verify that it was good and the reward could be collected.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:06 am 
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The proposal for sending spies to lower ranked players planets just makes it easier to get a complete map of enemy planets. I'm all for adding additional spy features, but not against those out of your bounty range. Some others mentioned the ability to place a spy on opponent ship... Definitely would like to see that, just stay in those bounty ranges. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:29 pm 
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A-Blitz wrote:
The proposal for sending spies to lower ranked players planets just makes it easier to get a complete map of enemy planets. I'm all for adding additional spy features, but not against those out of your bounty range...



Then you advocate for changing nothing A-Blitz. As it stands right now you can put spies on anyone in your bounty range high or low.

I am am advocating that spies can be placed on lower than your own planets but that if they end up on players that are lower than your bounty range they don't report any data...

If this was a school quiz about the new proposal you would fail and have to retake the course. :cool:

Now go back and reread the proposals again. =P


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:44 pm 
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No you fail For proposing something that does not make sense to me. You can't place spies on lower players unless they are The Opposite alignment of you no matter the score. Like I said, People don't need anymore help locating everything.

Edit: I did actually read this thread more thorough this time and still disagree. Spies Piggy backing on lower players is still useless for the good of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:14 am 
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A-Blitz wrote:
No you fail For proposing something that does not make sense to me.



The teacher has failed the student.
So it must be that the waterfall eventurally erodes the base that supports it.

:dunno:


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:43 pm 
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I made a mistake in post but the way you worded a couple things didn't seem right to most I would think. Do you understand where I'm comming from here ? If you think that spies set up this way is going to make things easier for you, Its going to make it alot more easier for others that would probably be putting alot more time into setting these spies up anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:22 am 
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Kwae Zar wrote:
Seriously - Just QUIT chasing your tails on this...

I have said it for years and will say it again. Networth immunity.

If someone is five to ten times bigger or more than the target, they simply can not attack them or destroy them. Period.
This solution stops all the *crap* that has been happening concerning bounties FOREVER.

No more tweaking the system to discourage people who look to bully little players who are learing the game...
No more blaze of glory jackasses who are gonna quit anyways so they might as well make someone elses life hell...

Fixed FOREVER.

Period.


I just think they give a couple more chances than should be allowed but I really like how they set this up because it'd be more fun to watch someone whose getting these purposefully, get dealt with by the law of the universe. I'd say that no matter if it happened to me 2 -3 times in a row. Although thats impossible cause i'm too fast. :cool: Y'all really should add something in the news like Sage suggested. That would be cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Kwae Zar wrote:
InstinctSage wrote:
That's what I want. Bounty for caught spies, not placed spies.


This should never come about. It will even more greatly reduce the usage of spies.


Only if you retain the inability for spies to report on bounty players, and only for players not explicitly intent on spying. If you're a larger player who is serious about spying, it follows that you'll have a vastly superior cloak tech to a lower player, ergo you could get away with it. If you haven't invested in cloak tech, the risk is higher that you'll get caught. It discourages attackers and builders from dropping spies on lower players, but leaves the door open for those who are investing in spying, since they're less likely to be caught. But it only works if there's a reward for doing it, hence why I suggest it alongside actually allowing spies to report on players who are bounty.

I agree with A-Blitz that tweaking the system to promote the propagation of spies across the game will just make it easier for everyone to spy. Everyone is carrying spies because everyone drops them on their own planets anyway, so if you can't attack a planet, the next step is to drop a spy there. Eliminating bounty from spying just means everyone will drop a spy on a lower ranked player's planet. That actually hurts a spy player, since the information they sell is commonplace.

I'm against direct dropping on a ship, too, but I could be swayed. Getting a spy on a player's ship is pretty much the ultimate goal of spying, since it'll give you all their planets before long. Being able to just do that, as ballsy as it would be, just seems like a bit too much.

Spies aren't underpowered in the game. The difficulty involved in landing spies and maintaining them on a player is precisely what makes them valuable, and the information they give can be devastating to a player. I think that before you can make it easier to spy, you need to make sure spying is something not everyone is going to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:24 pm 
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A-Blitz wrote:
I just think they give a couple more chances than should be allowed but I really like how they set this up because it'd be more fun to watch someone whose getting these purposefully, get dealt with by the law of the universe.



See I disagree with this approach. Mark my words someone who is looking to go out in a blaze of glory will find a creative way to screw with everyone elses game. Dealing with the "game-ruiner" after he has already tainted other peoples gaming experiences is hardly justice.

AAT has a long history of people being "asses" when they grow bored... and are looking to cause as much destruction as possible before they hit the delete key. The person who is leaving the game has nothing to lose by being a bully; they were leaving the game anyhow.

How is that fair to Joe, Jack and Jill Newbie? It's not. And furthermore it fosters an environment where people won't take the time to learn this, already steep learning curve, game. They just walk away from AAT to never return.

Creating a system where this "bully" or blaze of glory scenario won't happen in the first place is the only way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:53 pm 
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We are not going to allow higher ranked players to ever place spies on a bounty range players planets even if they can't become active.

If you think it through you will see it is a HUGE exploit waiting to happen.

You would find that every high ranked player would load up every bounty class planet with spies. Those planets could have 5 spies from every top ranked player. Imagine 50 spies on every low ranked players planet. Sure they will not be active until the player leaves bounty protection but then they get SLAMMED in a very UNBALANCED way.

How is it unbalanced?

You would have top ranked players putting spies with 300+ cloak values on low ranked players planets. Those lower ranked players would NEVER be able to detect those cloaked spies. Even after they leave bounty protection the players would not be able to afford sensors that could detect those cloaked spies.

As I said if you allow top ranked players to place spies on bounty range players even though they are not able to be active you will find every low ranked players planets loaded with spies. It would be like being able to place a nova bomb on a low ranked players planet but it won't go off until they leave bounty protection.

It is a very unbalanced idea.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:48 am 
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Kwae, PM.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:35 am 
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Panama Jack wrote:
We are not going to allow higher ranked players to ever place spies on a bounty range players planets even if they can't become active.


Understood. Really the spy ideas that we placed here were worthy of thier own thread. While I can see now that sleeper cell spies as written aren't such a hot idea afterall, there are other spy ideas mentioned that would make improvements to the system. I'll get it all in a blog near the end of the week.


Any comments on the networth immunity / flagging ideas that are being thrown around or are you still mulling it over?


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