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 Post subject: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Due to certain players deciding it was more fun to cause havoc on small players at the end of the game we have decided to make a couple more changes to the bounty system. We had a few players who didn't care about getting a bounty and decided to wipe out as many tiny players as possible to increase their kill counts and tick off new players. We will not stand for crap like this as it ruins the game for everyone.

We have decided that if you get more than 3 bounties it is 100% DELIBERATE. No one can have that many accidents in the game. If they are they need to think about playing something less challenging like breathing. :p Yes we are ticked off.

We have lowered the bounty level checks to 3, 4 and 5 instead of 3, 5 and 7. If you receive 5 the Federation or Alliance takes your most expensive ship.

We have added a 4th level bounty check. This one is very, very nasty for the deliberate bounty attacker but will still allow them to defend themselves and attack players in their bounty range.

If a player receives 6 or more on their internal bounty counter they will immediately lose the ship they attacked with AND their most expensive ship or MOST EXPENSIVE PLANET whichever is worth the most. If they attack any bounty player while their bounty counter is over the level 3 counter (5) they will immediately lose the attacking ship AND either their most expensive ship or planet. It will take a minimum of 4 days for this to happen for each count.

The final and 5th level bounty check is set at a bounty counter of 7. When they get this many bounties they are REMOVED from the game. They are killed without an escape pod. It doesn't matter if they have one on the ship or not. The Federation will shoot the escape pod as soon as it comes out because the player is no longer wanted in the universe.

You will not be able to split the federation and alliance bounties as before. The federation and alliance bounty counters are totalled together for a total bounty count.

We will not tolerate this kind of playing. We CAN make this far more harsh if we have too.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Nasty... Will they show up as podded in the news, or arrested and executed by the federation for war crimes? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:43 pm 
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Just that they died without an escape pod. No fanfare. It will be like they made an attack and died from it.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Seriously - Just QUIT chasing your tails on this...

I have said it for years and will say it again. Networth immunity.

If someone is five to ten times bigger or more than the target, they simply can not attack them or destroy them. Period.
This solution stops all the *crap* that has been happening concerning bounties FOREVER.

No more tweaking the system to discourage people who look to bully little players who are learing the game...
No more blaze of glory jackasses who are gonna quit anyways so they might as well make someone elses life hell...

Fixed FOREVER.

Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Kwae Zar wrote:
Seriously - Just QUIT chasing your tails on this...

I have said it for years and will say it again. Networth immunity.

If someone is five to ten times bigger or more than the target, they simply can not attack them or destroy them. Period.
This solution stops all the *crap* that has been happening concerning bounties FOREVER.

No more tweaking the system to discourage people who look to bully little players who are learing the game...
No more blaze of glory jackasses who are gonna quit anyways so they might as well make someone elses life hell...

Fixed FOREVER.

Period.



KZ, while I agree with you to an extent the problem remains in those situations where your in an edgy situation.

As an attacker I scan a sector, says no bounty so I attack, now if that player was on the edge, I may get a bounty for this attack. In the plan you have, would I bounce, die or what? A bounty tells me I was too close. I die, a little harsh, a bounce more than likey.

Now the other issue is, if I am a large player and someone is taking my stuff, maybe they found a backdoor somewhere. I know my bounty count is low, so I can A, take the bounty and give myself a temporary reprieve while I re-defend, or B, watch the player take my stuff scott free. While it will cost me to take that player out. I will need to wait 4 fays for the bounty count to go away and my next bounty to remain cheaper.

I do feel there should be a way for a player to retaliate to a degree, be it a timed or limited attack. I just cant come up with anything that is not exploitable yet. I am unsure I completely like a net worth immunity or not, as it just give the little guy all the power..



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:59 pm 
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Tarnus wrote:
As an attacker I scan a sector, says no bounty so I attack, now if that player was on the edge, I may get a bounty for this attack. In the plan you have, would I bounce, die or what? A bounty tells me I was too close.


If in this case you are attempting to initiate the conflict you would get a cleverly worded message to go pick on someone your own size and NO ATTACK would occur at all. Or the smaller ship you were attempting to attack would have its "much bigger than you emergency automatic jump to Sol" system engaged and no damage would occur what-so-ever.

Tarnus wrote:
Now the other issue is, if I am a large player and someone is taking my stuff... I do feel there should be a way for a player to retaliate to a degree, be it a timed or limited attack.


Oh absolutely... I am glad you too have been mulling over solutions that sounds very similar to my own thoughts. I want to drawn emphasis to a key word in your own sentence: retaliate. Explained - A transgression must occur against you (the MUCH MUCH bigger player) FIRST before you now are given rights to lay down the law.

Transgressions against your ship will result in longer "flagging"; while infringements on planets, SD, and owned space will results in regressively shorter periods of "flagging".

** If some little fry is stupid enough to launch an offensive against a much larger ship he is then "flagged". I then have 24 to 48 hours (or whatever) to blow him up. Once podded the flag is turned off. Retaliation complete.
** If some little fish is snooping around and has hit any of my own SD he is now flagged for 6 to 12 hours so that retaliation can occur. Once podded the flag is turned off. Retaliation complete.
** If some little ship is in any sector that I own, and I catch him in that sector, he is flagged for as long as remains in sectors that I own. Once the ship leaves or the ship is podded, the flag is turned off. Retaliation complete.

The finer points can be discussed but this methodology stops dead in its tracks the bullies and thus the code changing that follows it.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:22 pm 
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Kwae Zar wrote:
Tarnus wrote:
As an attacker I scan a sector, says no bounty so I attack, now if that player was on the edge, I may get a bounty for this attack. In the plan you have, would I bounce, die or what? A bounty tells me I was too close.


If in this case you are attempting to initiate the conflict you would get a cleverly worded message to go pick on someone your own size and NO ATTACK would occur at all. Or the smaller ship you were attempting to attack would have its "much bigger than you emergency automatic jump to Sol" system engaged and no damage would occur what-so-ever.


Tarnus wrote:
Now the other issue is, if I am a large player and someone is taking my stuff... I do feel there should be a way for a player to retaliate to a degree, be it a timed or limited attack.


Oh absolutely... I am glad you too have been mulling over solutions that sounds very similar to my own thoughts. I want to drawn emphasis to a key word in your own sentence: retaliate. Explained - A transgression must occur against you (the MUCH MUCH bigger player) FIRST before you now are given rights to lay down the law.

Transgressions against your ship will result in longer "flagging"; while infringements on planets, SD, and owned space will results in regressively shorter periods of "flagging".

** If some little fry is stupid enough to launch an offensive against a much larger ship he is then "flagged". I then have 24 to 48 hours (or whatever) to blow him up. Once podded the flag is turned off. Retaliation complete.
** If some little fish is snooping around and has hit any of my own SD he is now flagged for 6 to 12 hours so that retaliation can occur. Once podded the flag is turned off. Retaliation complete.


This is if he actually attacks your SD. Not if he warps and hits a few mines. Also acts of espionage should not necessarily be a flagging trigger. Such as destroying probes, sending spies.

Quote:
** If some little ship is in any sector that I own, and I catch him in that sector, he is flagged for as long as remains in sectors that I own. Once the ship leaves or the ship is podded, the flag is turned off. Retaliation complete.

The finer points can be discussed but this methodology stops dead in its tracks the bullies and thus the code changing that follows it.


I am still in favor of removing the alignment retaliation. And this seems like a very good, and more fair, option to let a larger player "police" his empire.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:33 am 
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Then ,if I understands, soon (maybe .., it is already the case) the game will be only for builders...



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:41 am 
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Vandread wrote:
Then ,if I understands, soon (maybe .., it is already the case) the game will be only for builders...


What do you mean? If a player has a "Limited" Retaliation chance, why would that help builders. I still have mixed opinions on the issue, however. If anything it opens the game up to more attacking. What it means is if you attack "Anyone" you better have a good hiding place or you may find some retaliation takes place.

I do feel it needs to be limited though if we actually do it. I foresee a few problems with the idea that would need to be discussed a bit. As Max H was discussing in the prev message.

Example: If I as a small player hit a large player, I take one little empty planet, does that give that player the right to hunt me till I lose the ship, taking all my planets till he gets my ship. No thats way out of balance.

The time limit would have to be a max of 24 hours, or the timer engages the second the player logs back in and in that case it should be a 1-4 hour timer if not shorter. This would limit the retaliation.

The other thing on retaliation, you can only take the value of the planets that were taken from you or till you get the ship. This would pretty much fix the empty planet scenario I disccused earlier.

Note: This maynot ever happen, but its worth talking about and discussing.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:53 pm 
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I think this would be a great addition to the game. It would keep players playing within their range more, and it would eliminate the need for players to use hired guns to some extent. For things you do in life there are consequences, just like it should be in the game. But there are some definite exploits to this, so it would need to be thought out very carefully.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:08 pm 
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May it'd help to outline what it means to be playing by 'the spirit of the game'. What I mean is, I'm not sure what behaviours you want to encourage and limit/ban. I'm inclined to suggest a tiered bounty system:

*** You are immune to attack from the player
** Player receives bounty for attacking planets or ship
* Player receives bounty for attacking your planets
Within Range
* You receive bounty for attacking this player's planets
** You receive bounty for attacking this player's planets or ship
*** This player is immune to attack from you

The bounty immunity would nullify attacks/espionage. Not bounce, not kill, you'd just receive a message that you are unable to attack this player with a link to return to the main menu. If a player is in the edge of your range you'll receive a bounty to tell you you were too close. If a player is bounty and on the edge of immunity, you'd be able to get one attack off, get your bounty, but even if you were to continue hitting them you'd never be able to destroy them completely. Doesn't solve smaller players attacking larger players, but if you wanted to prevent that you could make immunity a two way street.

If you DO want smaller players to be able to attack larger players, but prevent them overdoing it, the only other idea I have is to mark aggressive players. When a player attacks someone they are protected from under the bounty system, they are marked as being in an aggressive stance, which opens them up to attack from anyone. It's just like bounty, only with a time penalty rather than a cash penalty. It would work like the current bounty system however, in that making multiple strikes would drastically increase the penalty. After 4 days of non aggression you're 'cooled off' and can attack again with minimal penalty.

So if you catch a player you're protected from in his trade ship, or find a backdoor to his SG and there's a tasty rich planet for the taking, you can hit it, and you'll be open season for all for maybe 30 mins. If you attack anyone else you're protected from within 4 days, you'll be open season for 2 hours, then 8 hours, whatever you guys think works. The concept is to allow cheap shots to punish a bigger player's stupidity, but not overplay your hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:37 am 
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Quote:
*** You are immune to attack from the player
** Player receives bounty for attacking planets or ship
* Player receives bounty for attacking your planets
Within Range
* You receive bounty for attacking this player's planets
** You receive bounty for attacking this player's planets or ship
*** This player is immune to attack from you

The bounty immunity would nullify attacks/espionage. Not bounce, not kill, you'd just receive a message that you are unable to attack this player with a link to return to the main menu. If a player is in the edge of your range you'll receive a bounty to tell you you were too close. If a player is bounty and on the edge of immunity, you'd be able to get one attack off, get your bounty, but even if you were to continue hitting them you'd never be able to destroy them completely. Doesn't solve smaller players attacking larger players, but if you wanted to prevent that you could make immunity a two way street.

If you DO want smaller players to be able to attack larger players, but prevent them overdoing it, the only other idea I have is to mark aggressive players. When a player attacks someone they are protected from under the bounty system, they are marked as being in an aggressive stance, which opens them up to attack from anyone. It's just like bounty, only with a time penalty rather than a cash penalty. It would work like the current bounty system however, in that making multiple strikes would drastically increase the penalty. After 4 days of non aggression you're 'cooled off' and can attack again with minimal penalty.

So if you catch a player you're protected from in his trade ship, or find a backdoor to his SG and there's a tasty rich planet for the taking, you can hit it, and you'll be open season for all for maybe 30 mins. If you attack anyone else you're protected from within 4 days, you'll be open season for 2 hours, then 8 hours, whatever you guys think works. The concept is to allow cheap shots to punish a bigger player's stupidity, but not overplay your hand.


I fully support this idea... twice. FNN news comment "Due to the aggressive actions taken by Captain [player], Captain [player] will temporarily be removed from the Federations wing of protection. Any retaliatory measures taken upon Captain [player] before [XX.XX] Federation Standard Time may be taken without fear of penalty."

This would require showing the game clock that all the FNN news, shoutbox posts, and logs conforms to on the main.php... which I think should already be there anyway.

I should note I don't support the espionage part of the bounty or immunity thing... rather I support Kwae Zar's thought that spies should always be able to be placed on planets but remain inactive until the player is within range or higher... creating a sort of sleeper cell. I believe this would increase the roll of spies in the game and cause a lot more players to actively scan their planets.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:00 am 
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My opinion is that spying is a fantastic idea, but it's a subclass that isn't directly supported by the rules. By using what tools are available to make information transfer a transaction players have turned Spies from a tool into an entire class. I get the feeling spies weren't intended to form the basis of a new class like that, and the rules seem to restrict a player's ability to make a living from it.

I don't like the sleeper cell idea. The way I see it, If a spy makes any action beyond investigating and reporting against a bounty/immune player, they spy is killed and the player receives bounty. Other than that, it's open season. Reason being:

* I can't see a spy player ever really wanting to be in the upper echelons if it's going to progressively thin out their earning potential.
* How is the Fed supposed to know you've successfully dropped a spy on a player anyway?

The way spy cloak/detect rules are currently worked out means a player who can afford a high cloak can bug smaller players who have little to no chance of detecting/removing the spies (which is why it's bounty to do so). Making them sleep until a small player grows big doesn't stop that, it just means spy players are better served chucking spies on everyone below them and making sure their score doesn't go to high so they can still benefit from the information.

The only solution I can come up with off the top of my head is to include net worth in the calculation for cloak/detect chance when dropping/cleaning, or use bounty ranges as a straight modifier (i.e. you CAN drop a spy on a player who is bounty to attack, but you cop a % decrease in your cloak level for the calculation to compensate, same deal when the player cleans). Or you could say the player ONLY receives bounty once the spy is caught. It makes the decision to drop a spy (and the maintenance involved in making sure you don't have spies on players well below your range) a little more weighted.

I think a lot of tweaks could be done to make spies a more risk vs. reward activity. As it stands, there's no reason for any player not to buy spies and try dumping them on everyone in their range, and there's no risk involved. If your spy gets caught the worst that is gonna happen is any other spies you or any other player has on the target might get found when the player does a full clean-up. So you can safely expect anyone who's ever visited any sector you have a planet on has tried to drop a spy, so long as you're not bounty to them. The only thing that sets a Spy player apart from any other player is the amount they invest in cloak tech on a ship to make their spies more resilient against capture.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:18 am 
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Quote:
I don't like the sleeper cell idea. The way I see it, If a spy makes any action beyond investigating and reporting against a bounty/immune player, they spy is killed and the player receives bounty. Other than that, it's open season. Reason being:


The idea is that the spy would not take any actions on the player until they were large enough to be able to contend with the player that dropped the spy. By the time that spy is able to take any action, the player will be large enough to be able to find the spy. It will simply take a regular scanning process.

Quote:
The only solution I can come up with off the top of my head is to include net worth in the calculation for cloak/detect chance when dropping/cleaning, or use bounty ranges as a straight modifier (i.e. you CAN drop a spy on a player who is bounty to attack, but you cop a % decrease in your cloak level for the calculation to compensate, same deal when the player cleans).


I kinda like this, but not as much as I like this :

Quote:
Or you could say the player ONLY receives bounty once the spy is caught. It makes the decision to drop a spy (and the maintenance involved in making sure you don't have spies on players well below your range) a little more weighted.


I've pushed that idea towards Tarnus a few times... I send most my ideas to Tarnus, rather than use the forum, they have to pass the TH Filter before they get to PJ, then, if i'm lucky, It'll get passed him.

I personally would like to see more spy types, spy probes (attempt to plant spies on planets they pass), and generally anything else I can think off to make Spying a class that can exist independent of attacker and builder. I'd kinda like the Spy system to be built so that it's sort of a gamble, good and bad can come of it. The 'bounties only if/when your spies are caught' thing is a particularly good example of this.



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 Post subject: Re: Another Bounty Change
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 pm 
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LordTonto wrote:
I personally would like to see more spy types, spy probes (attempt to plant spies on planets they pass), and generally anything else I can think off to make Spying a class that can exist independent of attacker and builder.I'd kinda like the Spy system to be built so that it's sort of a gamble, good and bad can come of it. The 'bounties only if/when your spies are caught' thing is a particularly good example of this.


I like that too, but I think if you're risking bounty to have a spy on someone out of your range, you should receive a reward to make it worthwhile. Making the spy useless until the player is in your range (and therefore capable of detecting it) means the only reason to drop a spy on a bounty player is because once they're big enough you can't break/cloak through their SD to do it. And if you're big enough, a player can be out of your range and still have the same level of sensors as the players in your range, since they'll be investing in more planets, better SD, or a greater attack capacity, rather than better sensors.

There's definite rewards involved in spying. But spying is based off cloak vs. sensors, which are both important techs regardless of spying. Attackers and Builders alike need to invest in sensors and cloak already. Since even a Stealth ship can't cloak through SD effectively, spying is more an opportunistic practice. Invest in decent sensor and cloak tech for your ship because you would anyway, and keep a few spies on your ship because you would anyway. If you get better cloak, you get more effective spies, but that's it. So I don't see why any player wouldn't engage in spying right now. The actual investment (spies) is paltry and the risk is zip.

The only real reason to limit yourself to a stealth is to be able to head back to Fed Space/Sol and to avoid minefields, and to get 300+ sensors without saving up for a voyager. The cost involved in getting 300+ sensors AND a high enough cloak to effectively spy (well over 3t) means you might as well start as a builder/attacker and invest in a spy ship later. You can always hop through Sol and sleep in your SG once it's well defended enough. And hey, if you're building SD you've already bought at least an Endy, maybe a Razorback. Why not make your spy ship a voyager or Excel, since to be an attacker you'd want high sensors and cloak anyway, you can just as easily spy as well, right?


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