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 Post subject: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:07 am 
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I thought I'd just up and start a new topic specifically dealing with questions on formulas running the game, since I have a lot and I'm spamming up newbies with stuff I'm not sure actual newbies would want to know right off the bat.

I'm looking for the following formulas:

Max Credits Stored on planet: I know the multiplier is adjustable by the server (Default 140) but I don't know what it's based off. Closest approximation I've found is cost of upgrade, but by tech level 200 that's off by a good 20 billion. =/

Capacity calculations for SD Fighters.
Capacity calculations for Beams, Shields and Armor for planets.

Colonist organics eating formula. I can't work this one out. I know around 15% organics production tends to prevent starvation whilst minimising a build up, but it'd be nice to know exactly how the eating is worked out. I can't make head or tails of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:39 am 
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Quote:
Colonist organics eating formula. I can't work this one out. I know around 15% organics production tends to prevent starvation whilst minimising a build up, but it'd be nice to know exactly how the eating is worked out. I can't make head or tails of it.


I use 10-15% but it is adjusted based on what the planet can produce. Don't forget every planet is different so a formula is pretty tough to do.



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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:07 pm 
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really isn't one for that.
I start at 14 usually and come back the next day and check for build up.
Or if I am verifying starvation, I load the planet status page in two windows and wait for the tick and reload.
That lets you adjust real time.
For the one's that have percentage issue you can base it off the 14 number for the min and add accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:25 pm 
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I'm trying to nut out production values of new planets to work out under what conditions it's better to dump colonists and let them produce the commodities for a base, and when you'd be better served hunting down the commodities yourself. It's a very niche calculation because it generally only applies to your very first planet if you're not expressly intending to build.

E.g. Pioneer with 150 Hull = 4379 Cargo. Assuming you could spend say, 50-150 turns RS or warp linking around looking for a convenient port for each commodity and getting 10k to your planet, compared to creating a planet in a Colonist port sector and trade route populating it with 33% production across the commodities to start.

I hit a snag when I realised I couldn't work out what was best. You'd need a higher production % to goods as it takes more colonists per tick to produce goods, but then you have to weigh in the fact that colonists are also eating organics, so it's difficult to work out how much you'd actually produce.

Once the planet is established 14%-15% is fine, but I like to have a surplus as I'm not sure if organics production precedes colonist eating (if it didn't then you'd get starvation problems when you had low organics) but I'm 95% sure it does.
I haven't watched my planets too closely over their growth stages so I'm not sure if you need to adjust organics production up or down a notch as the population grows, but from what you're saying about your own tactics it sounds like its pretty static (i.e what works at 200m colonists would work at 20b colonists and so on)


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:02 pm 
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InstinctSage wrote:
I'm trying to nut out production values of new planets to work out under what conditions it's better to dump colonists and let them produce the commodities for a base, and when you'd be better served hunting down the commodities yourself. It's a very niche calculation because it generally only applies to your very first planet if you're not expressly intending to build.

E.g. Pioneer with 150 Hull = 4379 Cargo. Assuming you could spend say, 50-150 turns RS or warp linking around looking for a convenient port for each commodity and getting 10k to your planet, compared to creating a planet in a Colonist port sector and trade route populating it with 33% production across the commodities to start.


Here is the problem with letting colonists take care of it early in the game. You have no real way of protecting that planet and then you need more patience. When I start a new planet I will still hunt a colonist port, but I use warp links to hunt for the ports I need to get it to were I can base it. Once based I can bump the defense levels and then fill with colonists. Usually the first planet you build in a game is a throw away. I usually build it at the very edge of fed space then its designed so I can buy a supercargo, or columbus so I can safely trade my way to a bigger hull. If I lose that planet Oh well... While I am trading with my nice larger hulled ship I start looking for potential homes, usually something I can use warplinks to get way out and a easy one way warp back to fed space :)



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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:26 pm 
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I consider the first planet a throwaway too. Just a springboard to either a super cargo or Columbus. The way I see it you can go a few ways:

Get a Pioneer to 150 Hulls and use warp links to create a planet. You can trade around and get enough for a super cargo or columbus the fastest this way theoretically, but it requires a bit of planning and luck.

Get a Pioneer to 150 Hulls, 150 Engines and use RS to create a planet. You can bolster your trade income by investing in power and a fuel scoop too and switching to Fed space RS trade (I doubt the extra 32 mil is worth it), but you're always going to burn turns if you RS to get everything you need to base a planet. It just makes it more convenient if you've explored a fringe of fed space and can dash between ports to quickly base a planet rather than relying on warp links.

That's an issue of how many turns it'll take you to get the cash you need to trade a pioneer for your ship of choice and start trading and upgrading. The other issue is how many turns it'll take you to base the planet once you have that cash. If you get the resources yourself you can base it right away, and I'm thinking that's best. But theoretically, once you're at 150 hull and have even 2 mil, you could spend a few hundred turns dumping colonists on a planet while everyone else is trading up to the amount they want to get to before they base a planet and buy their ship. Let the colonists naturally make the resources while you continue to trade and then return.

It's risky on the basis that someone could stumble upon your planet and capture, but before I could weigh up that risk I'd need to know if I was saving time by doing it. To estimate that, I'd need to know production values so I could take a stab at how many colonists you'd want to drop so that in around 1-2k turns when you've been trading up to enough to buy a new ship, your planet has produced enough commodities to base.

An added bonus is if you hang on to the planet it might wind up making you some cash someday or at the very least giving you free colonists/commodities when you go to find a nest, but I'm considering that a very minor factor given the cost of simply buying more.


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:04 pm 
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InstinctSage wrote:

That's an issue of how many turns it'll take you to get the cash you need to trade a pioneer for your ship of choice and start trading and upgrading. The other issue is how many turns it'll take you to base the planet once you have that cash. If you get the resources yourself you can base it right away, and I'm thinking that's best. But theoretically, once you're at 150 hull and have even 2 mil, you could spend a few hundred turns dumping colonists on a planet while everyone else is trading up to the amount they want to get to before they base a planet and buy their ship. Let the colonists naturally make the resources while you continue to trade and then return.



Here is the flaw to your thoughts. In the early stages your wasting your turns filling the planer with 4K of colonists at a time. Heres your formula :)

From the game settings you get this info:

Colonists needed to produce 1 Fighter each turn 20,000
Colonists needed to produce 1 Torpedo each turn 8,000
Colonists needed to produce 1 Ore each turn 2,222
Colonists needed to produce 1 Organics each turn 500
Colonists needed to produce 1 Goods each turn 2,222
Colonists needed to produce 1 Energy each turn 25,000
Colonists needed to produce 1 Credits each turn 100

turn_rate 10 This is the number of turns added to all players every scheduled tick. Normally every scheduled tick is once every 5 minute

So say you can drop 10,000 colonists on a planet, it takes 100 colonist to generate 1 credit.
Use 15% setting for organics and you have 8500 colonist generating credits, and 85 credits per turn *10 is 850 credits every 5 mins.

Take the colonist to 1 mill and you get 850,000 colonist generating which will give you 85,000 credits every 5 mins which is approx 24,500,000 per 24 hour period.

This does not take into account max credit bonuses, dignitaries etc. But it does show you that your actually better off spending those turns trading early on and build bigger later.

Hope this helps some :)



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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:25 am 
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Oh I wouldn't try to get a planet producing credits that early! As far as I know it's barely worth producing credits till you have at least 100mil colonists there.

I'm talking about creating your first planet ridiculously early and returning to base it once it produces the ore, goods and organics it needs.

Colonists needed to produce 1 Ore each turn 2,222
Colonists needed to produce 1 Organics each turn 500
Colonists needed to produce 1 Goods each turn 2,222
Dropping 4379 colonists every 2 turns (assuming planet/port colonist trade in the same sector)

If we assume that at 14% Org production you're eating what you make, then you can say (Colonists/500)*.14 = organics consumption.

So then:
Ignoring planetary production modifiers AND the passing of time as colonists are dropped on the planet...

Ore/Goods production should be equal, as they produce just as fast.
Ore/Goods production percentages should be balanced against organics production to reach 10k on all three in the fewest turns possible.

Given 2 turns to drop every 4379 colonists on the planet, how many drops at what percentage production results in 10k commodities in the fewest turns possible?

My answer is 82 drops at production levels 38%/38%/24%, resulting in 10k commodities in 327 turns. It would be more than this given my formula assumes the planet is producing based on 359078 colonists (after 82 drops) the whole time. It doesn't account for colonist birthing either.

So I'm gonna say around 400-450 turns. Since you hit your ideal colonist limit after 164 turns that gives you just under 300 turns of trading to get yourself enough money to buy a ship before its time to go base your planet and buy your ship. If you wanted more time you could tweak the amount of drops.


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:05 am 
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Update: Accounting for natural population growth the previous result goes from 327 to 321 turns. :-P

But I realise now I'm thinking about it the wrong way, here. The turns that it takes to get to 10k aren't important so long as they're not astronomical. What's important here is that (assuming my logic is right) using this method you can upgrade your Pioneer hull to 150 as normal, then immediatelybuy a genesis torp and warp out to a sector with a Colonist port that supports planets, and in 164 turns you can have seeded a planet so that you will be able to base and purchase a ship after 400-500 turns.
Given you'd be VERY lucky to earn 70mil in 400-500 turns in a pioneer in fed space, you can have a planet ready to base (sans credits) by the time you have the money for upgrading your ship, even to just a base model.

By the formula:
After 10 drops (20 turns spent colonising) it will take 1351 turns to get to 10k.
After 20 drops: 703 turns
After 30 drops: 500 turns

Not accounting for planetary production modifiers might mean you'd want to adjust to avoid starvation/unbalanced production, but you can check the production levels as you colonise and adjust on the fly.
Throw on a few turns to account for the fact that I'm basing the production amounts off the total final population after colonising (I'm still not accounting for growth rates after you finish colonising, but that won't counter it) and it still comes out looking like a very tempting option. You don't save too many turns skimping on the amount of colonists you drop, but can anyone else take less than 80 turns out of trading/upgrading to build and base their first planet?


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:25 am 
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InstinctSage wrote:
Throw on a few turns to account for the fact that I'm basing the production amounts off the total final population after colonising (I'm still not accounting for growth rates after you finish colonising, but that won't counter it) and it still comes out looking like a very tempting option. You don't save too many turns skimping on the amount of colonists you drop, but can anyone else take less than 80 turns out of trading/upgrading to build and base their first planet?


Now your also asuming you had a max hull before you stated a planet. Now if I had a maxed hull and was building a planet I would find a place to build were I had warp links within 2 or 3 turns from the planet. with a max hull on a pioneer its going to take me 3 rounds per comodity to fill the planet. so asuming I planned and the comodity is 3 warps away thats (3 *2)*3 which is 18 turns to fill my planet with a maxed pioneer hull vs the 80 turns you tall about :)

In the beginning I pride myself on high trade effieciency :) The guys that are real good starters have high effieciency so watch the ranking at a game start and you will see the ones that are good at it :)



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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Well whose going to start a planet without a max hull, considering you can net one so soon after starting? :p

Early game trade efficiency is what I'm talking about. But for my planet I need any sector with colonist port and planet support. Easy to find.

Tarnus wrote:
Now if I had a maxed hull and was building a planet I would find a place to build were I had warp links within 2 or 3 turns from the planet. with a max hull on a pioneer its going to take me 3 rounds per comodity to fill the planet. so asuming I planned and the comodity is 3 warps away thats (3 *2)*3 which is 18 turns to fill my planet with a maxed pioneer hull vs the 80 turns you tall about :)


Here you're assuming you can find a port which has warp links to commodity ports. Under ideal conditions you could get:

3 trips * 4 turns per commodity (assuming 1 warp link away) = 12 turns
36 turns.
You could shave off 6 turns if you created the planet in a sector with one of the commodities present instead of a colonist or other port (since you don't have to travel to and fro)
You could shave off a further 2 turns if you already had 1 load of another commodity in your hull when you went to create the planet (2 for travel, technically 1 for buying, but you're buying anyway so I wouldn't count it).
28 turns minimum.

But that's assuming the warp links are there, and convenient. How many turns are you spending looking for the place to call home? To me, warp linking is a gamble. It can pay off handsomely, but you can't guarantee it.
But I see your point. Even if I spent 40 turns colonising and left it at that, if you can find a 2 way link out of fed space you can warp back in and find everything you need in no time. The difference is negligible and warp linking is safer.


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:52 pm 
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InstinctSage wrote:

Here you're assuming you can find a port which has warp links to commodity ports. Under ideal conditions you could get:

3 trips * 4 turns per commodity (assuming 1 warp link away) = 12 turns
36 turns.
You could shave off 6 turns if you created the planet in a sector with one of the commodities present instead of a colonist or other port (since you don't have to travel to and fro)
You could shave off a further 2 turns if you already had 1 load of another commodity in your hull when you went to create the planet (2 for travel, technically 1 for buying, but you're buying anyway so I wouldn't count it).
28 turns minimum.

But that's assuming the warp links are there, and convenient. How many turns are you spending looking for the place to call home? To me, warp linking is a gamble. It can pay off handsomely, but you can't guarantee it.
But I see your point. Even if I spent 40 turns colonising and left it at that, if you can find a 2 way link out of fed space you can warp back in and find everything you need in no time. The difference is negligible and warp linking is safer.


Your forgeting who your talking to :) I am king of the start :) hehe as I am trading, I am alway looking for a potential place to live and or a temporary planet. I will find an untraveled area of fed space and there will be two ways to the port, I really dont need a col port for my initial purpose is getting me in to a columbus or a SCargo. With the columbus I can optimie my trading and trade energy, and I can work towards engines that let me RS trade in 2 turns. There are some great starters. The one that always does better than me is Big. Keep your eyes peeled he is more methodical than I am :) My goal is always to use the fewest turns and have the highest efficiency and score :) It also depends on if I shose to start late or not. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:22 pm 
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I'm working on my start. I've seen Big in one of the other games and he shot up to the top in no time. I still need to do a lot more testing and practicing before I can really get going, but I think my current plan is pretty efficient. The next hurdle is working out when it's best to start building a home.

I'm figuring I'd need at least enough to build a planet and buy either an endeavor or razorback so I can build SD efficiently when I start building, but that kicks me out of fed space so I need to be ready for that. In terms of a trading vessel it's more an administrative problem because you need to re-organise your routes, but it seems like the question isn't when it's worth moving to planets, but when you can afford to build and defend an SG efficiently.

The longer you wait, the more ticks go by where you could have planets producing. But make the jump too soon and you'll be wasting turns you could be making billions trading with, and at worst you might not be able to properly defend yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:32 am 
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Early on an SG is a little costly. What I will do is find a warp route that takes me far enough out that no one can easily find it, and usually one that has very few links to it. Once I have a col post way out I get it built then I do a few backups so I can generate credits and don't lose too much if I lose one.



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 Post subject: Re: Formulas
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:38 am 
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I put all my eggs in one basket and defend the hell out've it. If anybody can take my starter home well, damnit, they deserve it more than I do and they could have it just for the asking.



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