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 Post subject: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Well we have made it much more difficult to get a build kill. As everyone knows the intent was not to be able to kill the new players that thought the bounty protected them.... the original intent was enable a player to be able to kill a player that was in their established sector and be able to protect it to a degree.

So here is the fix. You can still use the build kill, however.... the planets will need to be established. This means you need to base the planets and wait anywhere from 18-54 hours before those planets are established. Say good bye to the quick build kill.

This will make the kill numbers actually mean more. Not to mention you get to use the knoggin more to figure out just how your going to trick them.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:29 pm 
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If you take over a sector by having the most based planets you WILL NOT OWN the sector immediately. When you can see the hidden production percentages on all planets then you will actually OWN the sector. Until that time the sector will be unowned. This means you will get a bounty attacking the smaller players planets or ships if they would normally give you a bounty.

The amount of time is random between each planet. As Tarnus mentioned from 18 to 54 hours. So you might have to wait over two days before you actually OWN a sector now. This opens up other possible problems. You will not be immediately protected anymore by just filling an empty sector with planets and basing them. You will have to wait the 15-54 hours before your planets will be protected by sector ownership.

There are both god and bad things with this change so beware.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:04 pm 
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I know there'll probably be some attackers complaining, but I like the change a lot. I don't understand the lack of a standard in time for planet establishment, like why 18-54 hours rather than just always 24 or something, but I don't have a problem with it either. SDs ought to be able to hold off attackers for the first couple days after planet formation.

Oh, and yes, my next comment may have an insulting implication, but oh well.

Thanks for putting this in action quickly! I appreciate the necessity of sitting down to consider whether a change is good enough to be implemented. It'd be bad to put in "fixes" without considering what they may cause, but it was good to get this up and running so quickly. I have to be honest; sometimes you guys take a while with fixes, and it bugs me. :P



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:55 pm 
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Just a question,

What other benefits are there to sector ownership beyond ability to build kill?


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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:25 pm 
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You can set sector rules like no allowing any ship to attack other ships, disabling port trading and other things. It gives you some measure of control over the sector.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:57 pm 
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How do I modify the sector rules in a sector under my control?


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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:13 pm 
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InstinctSage wrote:
How do I modify the sector rules in a sector under my control?


You click on the link in the upper right corner that says "PlayerNames" Territory



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:12 pm 
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Ah... Only 2 out of 4 planets in the sector I was trying in had reached 'established' phase. It's still Unchartered Space. Is that a correct application of the rule? Do all planets in the sector need to be based, or should I only need to own the most established, based planets? Because it's max 4, 2 established, 2 owned but awaiting establishment.


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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:20 pm 
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It's still more than half the planets a sector can support bust be based and established before you own it.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:18 am 
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What about doing a build kill while the other player is online? Not as common of a kill but it does happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:17 am 
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MM, that's the only type of build kill that was intended. It's supposed to be a defensive thing, killing them as they attack you in your sector. I doubt they're going to be sitting in your sector if they're offline

And Sage, there are two different levels of sector ownership, as I understand it. You need a majority of based, established planets in a sector to own it. So if the sector supports 5, you need 3. If it supports 4, you need 3. If it supports 3, you need 2. etc. That lets you attack anyone in the sector bounty free. But to change the rules, you also need SD up.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:44 am 
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MadMArdigan666 wrote:
What about doing a build kill while the other player is online? Not as common of a kill but it does happen.


Naw, I don't like the idea of it. Like val said the original intent was to allow you to defend against an attack to a degree, I have some other ideas, but I gotta get them past PJ and that takes alot of justification to get it past Bad Cop ;)

You can still build kill, its just going to take alot of luck and patience ;)

Besides a build kill isn't a real kill, that player has no chance to defend themselves against you. They just wake up in sol wondering what happened.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:55 am 
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Valience wrote:
MM, that's the only type of build kill that was intended. It's supposed to be a defensive thing, killing them as they attack you in your sector. I doubt they're going to be sitting in your sector if they're offline


That's not a build kill, that's catching them in the act. A build kill is defined as this, build planets, base planet and get the kill. not catching them in a sector you already own. You may not be able to catch them in your sector during the attack but may be able to follow them and get the kill.

This one of those things that is taking legit tools out of the hands of players. I can see the need for changes to happen, but this isn't going to do much to really help anyone. Its a band aid fix. There is a need to fix these problems and as this one that won't affect a lot of people, is it possible to just ask players stop doing it before drastic measures are taken? I say that because its something that may help in this stage of the game, but will have a serious effect at the start of the a round.

As I understand it there is a newer version of the game in development, version 1.00. Is it perhaps not a better idea to redesign certain aspects of the game for that version. Instead create a Players Code of Conduct for now, ask the players to become more responsible for their actions. Its hard to disagree that current rules aren't being taken advantage of, there is somewhat of a purpose to all the things you have changed. These changes fix the problems that you see now in the current stage of the game. I also see them having dire consequences when its a new round at the very beginning. I know PJ doesn't like the idea of the players acting as a first level of enforcement for fair game play. It doesn't affect all servers that are running the game. At the same time it is a better way than restricting the game even further.


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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:06 pm 
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MadMArdigan666 wrote:
That's not a build kill, that's catching them in the act. A build kill is defined as this, build planets, base planet and get the kill. not catching them in a sector you already own. You may not be able to catch them in your sector during the attack but may be able to follow them and get the kill.


Taking the build kill option out really has no effect on the original intent of the ability to kill a player in the sector you owned. As I said earlier, that was the original purpose and use of that option. All the change insures is that you have to own the sector long enough to have established planets before you can attack someone no bounty.

As it is, sort by kills, and tell me that the top 3 highest kill counts, that 75% of the kills were not helpless pioneers? Some were legit, but the majority were killing a helpless victim.

This is not a band aid fix. This was the correct thing to do for what the original intent of the tool was.



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 Post subject: Re: Build kill say goodbye
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:55 pm 
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Tarnus wrote:
As it is, sort by kills, and tell me that the top 3 highest kill counts, that 75% of the kills were not helpless pioneers? Some were legit, but the majority were killing a helpless victim.

This is not a band aid fix. This was the correct thing to do for what the original intent of the tool was.


I wouldn't say pioneers, but helpless victims I would agree with. I am not going to disagree that this a problem for new or smaller players. I still think more needs to be done with new and smaller players to protect them.

I'll stick with calling at a band aid fix. The reason is this, its going to be that much harder at the beginning of the round for players. They are in the process of building and trying to establish themselves and create revenue. And at this point of the game solid sector defenses are non existent. Everything is really expensive, you need a ship to build with, you need to upgrade that ship and you need to upgrade planets. Ship upgrades are so critical at that point of the game, trading and colonizing. Defending a sector is also costly, especially as you are spreading your money thin as it is. The loss of a sector could be devastating or a huge set back for a player. To this problem I would consider implementing this solution at a certain point in the in the players game, once a player uses x amount of turns and the type of ship involved. The new build kill rule would come into effect at that point.
You talked about A Voyager or an Endouver class ship as being some sort of dividing line of being able to do things.


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